Engineering as a Profession

A somewhat dramatic statement by a correspondent printed in 'Practical Letters from our Readers', ME Vol.45, No.1065 p249.

The writer was, however, just echoing what had already been said over many previous issues, about the general standing of 'engineers' at the time, namely 1921, and advising 'boys' to take up banking instead.

His final statement was:-

“If it where more widely known that corporation and Government valued theoretically and practically trained engineers at a little less than policeman and a trifle more than dustman I should imagine that it would act as a sufficient warning to the non-technical public...”.

That really shook me to the core, and from my own experience, reading and talking with people, the situation has not changed much if at all.

The comparison with other countries is staggering to say the least, notably Germany where an Engineer is in charge of most if not ALL companies instead of bean counters.

What is the experience of our group I wonder, with regards to public perception of 'Engineering' and 'Engineers'?

Geoff - A tiring but pleasant afternoon & evening with the 3-year old

The comparison with other countries is staggering to say the least, notably Germany where an Engineer is in charge of most if not ALL companies instead of bean counters.

Short term bucks and no long term strategy, the British disease of rubbish management. The car industry being the best example of our crap managers. Even FIAT and ALFA ROMEO outlived the British car industry.(and oh boy were they rubbish)

Next on the block are the oil industry employees... then in 5 years the oil industry will be screaming for skilled labour, lol, and blaming the government for not producing enough cannon fodder for them to abuse

Seen it all before in the 1980s

Edited By Ady1 on 22/12/2014 01:09:50

Perhaps because in many, if not most, other Western countries, the term "Engineer" is protected by law and cannot be used to describe a person who is not a qualified member of the local Engineering Institution (I Mech E etc equivalent). Fifty years ago when I was an Engineer in the UK, that wasn't true there (although the engineering institutions claimed to be working in that direction) - I don't think much has changed.

If anyone and his dog can call themselves an Engineer, it's not surprising that the general public has little respect.

In Canada, where I live now, even the term "Model Engineer" is pretty iffy if someone wants to push it. Dropping the "Model" part, as often happens here, would render a person liable to legal action.

Regarding "claims" to be an Engineer:

The etymology of the word profession is quite interesting.

MichaelG.

I served my time as a "Mechanical Production Engineer" with RR. After I left and trained as a Mental Health Nurse I discovered that Nurses were officialy seen as only semi skilled labour according to the Whitly Council who set the pay scales. By the time I left nursing in 1999 it was a degree qualification.

I get a very strong feeling that the UK simply doesn't value good quality training and a committed workforce. However that is enough of politics. They will learn once the skills have died out and they need to repair / rebuild stuff as happened with the canal tunnels and you ended up with 80+ year old men laying on their backs alongside young men have to re teach skills which had all but gone to stop the tunnels collapsing.

Engineers have it lucky, I'm a Chartered Environmentalist, and most people think an 'environmentalist' is a form mono-manical deep-green...

Neil

On the news this morning there was mention of an expected large increase in employment next year, the main complaint seemed to be that a there is a shortage of skilled people to satisfy the demand.

Now there's a surprise (not).

Edited By V8Eng on 22/12/2014 09:53:20

A man from the CBI was on the news this morning, complaining about the lack of skilled workers. I had to laugh, just to stop myself banging my head against the wall. Seems we are short of brickies, plumbers sparkies, as well as engineers. When I was working just about everybody was rated above engineers, sales people being near the top. Our German relatives can not believe it.

I think the British situation is more a result of the retention of the monarchy and the 'old order' preventing the rise of people based on their capability during the 19th century when the rest of Europe and the world were having revoulutions.

Institution based protectionism or 'closed shops' is a very bad thing however. We were under that yoke in the 16th century withtthe Guilds, then again in the 20th with the Uniions and now it is built on being built on 'Institutions' which prevent labour mobility and diversification.

However that writer back in 1921 had it right. Wish I'd been a Banker.

I see my post crossed with V8's. I think the main reason is that Britain changed it's priorities, quick profit is the thing now, no thought of the future. Reading about the Japanese Bullet train- 50 years old now, no fatalities, protests if they are a few seconds late.

The definition of "engineer" is very wide:

(from Collins Dictionary)

So it doesn't distinguish between the top professionals and the guy who comes round to your house and fixes the washing machine.

Unfortunately the public doesn't understand what is meant by Chartered Engineer.

As for "Master Craftsman", whatever happened to five year apprenticeships? They have left an enormous hole. Successive governments have tried to fill that hole with degree students but all that has done is devalue the degrees. Who is going to employ all those Media Studies graduates? At one time only 5% of school leavers went on to university now it's something like 50% does that make the 45% more intelligent? Of course not. Before anyone comes along and says that the numbers used to be smaller because only the rich went to university I would remind them that the fees, accommodation, and living expenses were all covered by grants.

Rant over.

Eur. Ing. Russell C.Eng. (AKA grumpy old man)

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 22/12/2014 11:12:26

I concur with Ady1.. companies were / are only interested in short term profit... for the shareholders, with no long term view of business interests for this country, I too remember the 'eighties' when the common statement was ' Tom / Harry retires next month... who's going to replace him' ?. Companies were very reluctant to invest in apprenticeships per se; plus also very reluctant re 'Elf 'n' safety application in the plant or on site, now companies are asking the question 'who's going to fix this'? or .. 'you can't do that, H&S won't allow it.

I served my time back in the sixties as 'Fitter / Turner & then separated out into Plant / Maint. fitter .. ( with the approval of the AEEWU..AEU ) then spent a lot of my career on contracts abroad & the North Sea.. inc. 2 yrs as 'Jnr & 4th Engineer' in the MN, plus positions as 'site / flank Engineer in the Middle east with responsibility for Gas turbine / pumping sites etc. Back in my time in the Middle East 1975 - 84, - 1998 - 2004, the title 'Engineer' was given by the Co. as & when you had the experience to run sites / plant with the ability to manage maint.teams & apply budgetary control, in my case 3 water distribution plants, 21 satellite stations, all the associated maint. people plus a budget of $1,000,000 (1 million ), & I have only a HNC from college.

There are a lot of 'Engineers' around to day that I would use the term loosely, but in the same context there are a lot around that I would be pleased to call Engineers & that includes a whole raft of MEW members, I have taught 'Graduate Engineers' BSc, B.Eng. degree qualified, who in practical aspects, didn't know one end of a radial arm drill from another or what a 'datum point' was but would loose a lot of us with calculations on thermal heat loss of various insulating materials of buildings / furnaces et al, ... I am also a Tech.Member of I.O.S.H. (retired ) entitled to use letters after my name... so do I call myself a 'Safety Engineer'... ?  .

George. Tech.I.O.S.H.

Edited By mechman48 on 22/12/2014 11:22:03

Edited By mechman48 on 22/12/2014 11:26:09

.

and I worked at BAe Army Weapons as an "Environmental Engineer"

...no idea what "most people" would make of that.

MichaelG.

I think there is a clue to the problem in Russell's title , Euro Ing. Some of the continental countries that respect the qualification retain the "Ingenious" root of the word. The UK and several other countries blur the word with the word "engine" and in so doing merge mechanics, technicians, designers smiths etc. etc.all into one title, "Engineer"
Bob D

The other strategic problem is the privatisation of utilities

They got rid of things like nationalised water and electricity in the 1980s

The last reservoir built in this country was 1979 and overcapacity in the energy industry is now down to 5%, each winter they talk about the lights going out and every summer they talk about water shortages

Fabby dividends for shareholders though... they've sucked billions out of society

Shareholders - you mean my pension.

I think I should point out that although I am prepared to mix with you inferior 'Engineers' I am a 'Scientist'.

I don't mind private stuff for making trainers and ipads but not for strategic utilities with captive populations where there is no freedom of choice and an annual profit is 100% guaranteed

That's just taking the pi**

Back in 1991, BT were planning to "roll out"(yuk) high speed optical fibre across the UK. But Thatcher felt that it was more important to break up BT's monopoly than to build an infrastructure for the future (and possibly concerned about its impact on the BBC) so she put the kibosh on it. Classic triumph of so-called free market forces over national interests. Think where we'd be now if we'd got proper internet back then instead of 56k dial up!!

Particularly irritating and ironic to see that (our) tax payers money is now being used by her ideological offspring in government to advertise "high speed internet" on giant posters all around the country. Why do they need to do that?

Rantworthy

Edited By Muzzer on 22/12/2014 13:50:54