Plans for updating the archaic forum?

If you look through Lee's list he isn't suggesting a wholesale change, just fixing some aspects of the functionality that are deficient or non-standard. What's wrong with that?

Generally, I like the way this forum looks.

To some extent I think many of us are misunderstanding Lee. I think in his way he is trying to suggest improvements in functionality in certain areas. Many of us have experienced one thing or other in functionality which we have found irritating at times. Even the moderators would like to see some improvement in places.

However, the bespoke platform on which this forum is built on limits what the developer can do to make improvements. Off the top of my head, the platform on which this site is built is about 15 years old. Things have changed/improved heavily since then.

One can migrate onto a new platform with new software, and the layout can be similar to existing site. Small additions for improvement in functionality can be made so that the existing users can feel comfortable.

It is easy for us to say - if you build it, they will stay and more will come. But the risk - financial cost/investment? is MTMs. Regardless, as explained earlier, there is likely to be short term pain.

Browsers and search engines keep developing. For how long the platform can function in its current state is difficult to say. In many ways, this forum is about promoting the hobby of engineering. In years to come, how easy or difficult will it be for new people to find and join this forum if it remains in its current state? and will they be interested enough to stay and use the forum as it stands?

At the same time, is it worth MTMs time and money to do anything? Questions which only they can answer.

Ketan at ARC

... John Haine commented similar before my post up. Thanks John

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 22:36:21

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 22:38:39

In spite of some on here who think it’s absolutely perfect there have been many complaints in the past but I think those users probably just moved on. The software does seem old and quirky. The owners of the site won’t change it though because they’re happy with the way the advertising works on it - at least that’s the impression I got. Some of the earlier replies you got Lee are quite hilarious. One thing I do like though is the “Ignore Member” feature, it’s saved me a lot of wasted time.

Almost every time that an "improved" website is introduced it is anything but an improvement. More flashy , trendy colours maybe, anything but intuitive and a complete relearning experience with loads of "*****£$%^&*aaghs" as I fall for the quirky bits and do it wrong yet again. No give me "old and quirky" every time over the equally or more aggravating "new and quirky".

Mick

While many people will leave a site because "the forum software is rubbish", Yahoo being a spectacular example of this modern management hubris, almost nobody joins a site because "the forum software is fabulous"

Since ME is in the top echelon of web sites in the world for its subject matter, partly because it's relatively user friendly and partly because of the management style, any major change has a small probability of increasing its user base... and a much larger probability of reducing its user base

Well said Mick. We are still using the digital computer based on silicon for civilian use. Invented by Fairchild in its modern use in 1948. We reached the maximum switching speed of silicon based semi conductors in about 1982. Its all still just ones and zeros. What we haved developed is redundancy, i.e. better miniaturisation and more devices per unit area. Hence giving the false impression of improvement. At the advent of CAD the most intuitive system was Lockheed CADAM. It actually remains so. It was designed and built by real engineers and designers who actually drove drawing boards and made real things. But has been superceded by lesser products because of our intrinsic idleness and fancy flashy front ends. We are dazzled by glitz and false bling.

At the advent CAD it was mantra that CAD will NOT make you a better engineer or designer, it is merely a tool to make life easier. Just how true that remains. The physicists always used to tell us once 3D came along that using the digital computer there are only 3 fundamental mathematical engines to generate 3D computer models. Everything else is software engineer BS. I think it is still fact that we are using digital computers? Anyone is free to correct me. Let us take the top end 3D modellers. I will leave them nameless. But during my professional engineering life of some longevity the annual "update" and "improvement" became dreaded. In those complex systems you would find that something you had been using for a number of years had been removed, something pretty useless had been inserted and irrelevant. The original was a bolt on paid for option. Then the next year the useless bit would be removed and another useless bit added and a bit of the useful part put back in. The overall was never improved just "modernised" by dreamers who didnt have to use the systems at the coalface. All for 30 grand GBP per year per seat without the additional hardware resources required at every "improvement" and "modernisation".

Regards

Ian.

Hi Lee Jones, Thank you for replying to my question yesterday.

Maurice

You are more than welcome.

Well just to say it works well enough for me, there are two many things that are constantly changing these days. Cannot say more that has not already been said I think.

Can we have a Facebook page? .....only joking I don't go there lol

Pete

.

You only need to look through the first 50 lines of HTML for the homepage to see that Facebook has us

I can’t decipher the Facebook Pixel Code scripting, but I’m aware of its presence.

MichaelG.

.

Just got back from the shops where I was charged or rather asked for £186 for 3 loaves of bread. Why? New software.

Mick

Brilliant Mick. Last week our smart meter display (EDF) told us that we had used -£1341.67 (yep minus) electricity without the gas that day up till lunchtime. Called the help centre. Guess what. The software "engineers" had rolled out a new update without telling anyone. Call centres inundated. sorry for the delay. It would take a fortnight for the bright sparks to sort the mess out.

Apologies to the OP for the hi-jack.

Now here's the problem.

As a hobby, Model Engineering favours older folk because they have the time to enjoy it. Likely a majority of members have a small-c conservative outlook, characterised by resistance to change. All change! Not just websites, but the metric system, CAD/CAM, Smart Phones, online commerce, modern manufacturing methods, Uber, raves, climate change, globalisation, and the whole service economy.

We dislike change because older and wiser folk rely heavily on experience, which is undermined by innovation. Old dogs don't learn new tricks.

As old dogs don't last forever what's the future of the hobby? It has to attract new members. That won't happen if the hobby bogs down with a 1970 mindset or persists too long with retro forum software!

Basic workshop practice hasn't changed mucg for a century or more. Computers and software are exactly the opposite: rapid change, and the constant threat of obsolescence. Decision making is difficult and risky, it's much faster and complicated than the relatively straightforward world of 50 years ago. The logic that says 'buy the best quality tool you can afford and it will see you out', is bad to the bone inappropriate to computing.

Poor old MyTimeMedia. Customers who dislike change have to be kept happy whilst at the same time attracting internet savvy newcomers who are all too aware of the forum's shortcomings. If the need to upgrade is ignored for too long, their website goes the way of the telegram. Articles about Myford lathe accessories won't feed the children when all the customers are into quadcopters.

On a bus in 1970, I overheard a pensioner moaning about the imminent introduction of decimal currency. He said 'they should wait until all the old people are dead'.

Dave

Hi SOD, yes what you say is quite correct, but if the system software gets too far advanced too quickly, then many of the not so computer savvy older experienced people may stop using the forum and much knowledge may not be available to younger people. As my mother always used to say, progress is a double edged sword, or if you like, it can cut both ways. We need to remember this is a hobby forum when all is said and done.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 12/11/2020 10:53:02

Hello Dave,

I am somewhat offended by your claim that us oldies don't like change! I have always embraced change, where the benefits are seen to be good. I detest change for changes sake, unfortunately a lot of modern "change" actually gives little or no benefit and sometimes it is retrograde.

Take CAD for example. It will take me some considerable time to learn a particular programme, At my advanced age, I would rather get on with making things and use a drawing board. Am I against CAD, not at all and it is obvious that for younger people it is the way to go.

Is the forum software perfect, certainly not, it has its foibles. Is it worth updating? From my point of view there is little to be gained and an unknown downside. If it isn't broken......................

Who will foot the bill? One thing is for certain, it won't be Lee Jones.

Andrew.

What Andrew Tinsley said at 11.08.

"...where the benefits are seen to be good." In my book that means by most users, not just those with a particular technical bee in their bonnet.

Dave/SOD,

Not sure that I agree with you. I would suggest that older people have learned the true value of modern equipment, and have learned the true value of having to update frequently. (To say nothing of the cost of scrapping perfectly good equipment just to support someone's bottom line.)

Why should we always be chasing the moon? Is there any need to be in 24/7 contact with the world? Why should we rely on programming ability to produce a solid cylinder when careful twiddling of two knobs along with co-ordination of hands and eyes can achieve a satisfactory result and give a person an inner glow of having done it all theirselves.

Change for changes sake is not necessarily in the best interests of humanity.

Peter G. Shaw

Apologies for that - no offence intended. I'm writing about how I feel, not throwing rocks at my contemporaries.

I hate change. I suggest there are 4 types.

1. Good change, well implemented.
2. Good change, badly implemented.
3. Bad change, well implemented.
4. Bad change, badly implemented.

As three out of four change scenarios are toxic I've become less tolerant. Not because I dislike new ideas, it's because I don't have the energy needed to tough out inconveniences.

Dave

Putting it simply: Old people like things as they were when they were middle aged.

That is why we will use, or at least look at, CADs, computer operated machine tools, 3D printing but will not really understand social media.

£186 for 3 loaves of bread - things must be desperate out there. Locked down I can only go as far as the garden and workshop, perhaps fortunately.

JA

Edited By JA on 12/11/2020 12:05:37

There is a well known quotation from a certain John Ruskin from many many years ago.

"There is nothing in this world that some man cannot make worse and cheaper. The man who buys by price alone is that mans lawful prey" or words to that effect.

No where does this apply more than the software industry.

However I do object to standing accused in my 70's of objecting to "change". Without pushing my own load but I was one of the early pioneers in the plasma physics industry. Yep designing from scratch and mad scientists dreams the equipment that did the research into all the processes that YOU ALL make use of in these machines. I was an early CAD user late 70s 80s 90s and fully advocated good change. I didn't work 120hours a week to have "influencers" on farcebook and tweety pie tell how to put my underpants on.

Due to the way digital computers actually work just remember that software "engineers" must necessarily have a logic mindset of a 4 year old. Simples a 2 state society.

I have been an advocate of change for many many years but not the appalling things now feted on soshul meeja. Change to improve all lives has to be good change to dictate is not good.