David Clark 1 | 10/05/2012 17:17:54 |
![]() 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There The Northumbrian error was an attempt by the designer to correct and improve the design after the first build. If it had been left alone it would have been fine. We have been told of errors on drawings in the past that were non existent. The builder got it wrong. If we had changed the drawings we would have introduced an error, not removed one. Short of building the complete model and checking as you go there is nothing we can do about it. regards David
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JasonB | 10/05/2012 17:41:46 |
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Posted by David Clark 1 on 10/05/2012 17:17:54:
Short of building the complete model and checking as you go there is nothing we can do about it. regards David
While I will agree that some errors may not be spotted until someone tries to build the thing there are a lot that can be seen just by looking at the drawings that are presented too us, is it too much to ask for a basic check rather than just copy & pasting them straight into the mag. Take for example the string of errors on the portable engine now I've not tried to build it but just a cursory glance at the drawings will throw up the obvious clangers like a threaded part that is meant to screw into a plain hole? or an assembly that is wider than the space it is meant to fit into? Two parts that if built would be scrap now and they certainly were not due to anyone trying to improve the design. Even when these errors are pointed out they seem to hardly be acknowledged let alone any attempt made to give potential builders revisions, this just seems to be part of the its not my problem atitude. Also do these drawings stop being done by amatures when they get paid to provide the articles or a commision paid for the copywrite do they not feel they have a duty of care to at least provide something that the model can at be built to.
J Edited By JasonB on 10/05/2012 17:44:02 |
David Clark 1 | 10/05/2012 19:30:13 |
![]() 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There Portable errors were acknowledged. I set a thread up specifically for portable errors. We do not just copy and paste drawings.
The majority of drawings are redrawn and we check that they are correct to the author's original. We do not redesign a project completely. We work on one part of an article at a time. We do not usually check one drawing against another unless something jumps out at us. We just do not have the time when we are doing 3 magazines every 4 weeks. If the author gets it wrong, then we will try to print corrections. If there are lots of errors I doubt we would use that author again. regards David
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Stub Mandrel | 10/05/2012 20:33:08 |
![]() 4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | I have a set of eight drawings by Tubal Cain. They are hand drawn, but excellent. i haven't found any errors, as you might expect given his background.
But I note (wryly) that they don't conform to the exacting standards given in his book 'Workshop Drawing' David, I think it would be an idea to recommend that book to anyone planning to make plans for ME or MEW, even though some might accuse you of trying to boost sales! It explains the whys as well as the hows of technical drawing to a sensible level (i.e. it gives excellent explanations projections, line weights, dimensioning and conventions but it doesn't go into surface roughness etc.) Neil |
Nathan Sharpe | 10/05/2012 22:42:22 |
175 forum posts 3 photos | One of the very basic skills of engineering is the ability to read and interpret a drawing. This means using eyes and brain to pick out problems before you hit them. Yes we are generally amateurs and work to drawings done by other amateurs but we took up the hobby to produce something we could be at least happy with and learn something as we did it. Given that most problems with the drawings have been encountered by other amateurs the best advice is the oldest advice" join a local club/group" and use their accumulated expertise. As already posted even the most up to date industrial/commercial drawings WILL contain errors/omissions and mistakes.Try reading the drawings for a hospital's M+E and you would need six months to find the potential problems, do you complain about OS Mapping/Road Atlases/Satnav Mapping because they are not accurate (even the day after survey)? No, you do not, because these are things that you accept are only going to to be upgraded and amended from time to time. The same applies to Model Engineering drawings, but the CAREFUL and SKILLFUL engineer will do their research before buying drawings. They will have joined the club/usenet group/looked at other Mod Eng sites before spending money?? Model Engineering is for expanding your skill and enjoyment not to guarantee a 100% build without any problems. If you want a 100% guarantee of build first time either stick to Airfix or do nothing would be my advise. Drawings are and always have been a guide only, they are fit for that purpose, YOU have to provide the skill. If you can't is it you who's not "fit for purpose"?. |
David Paterson 4 | 11/05/2012 04:53:01 |
83 forum posts 8 photos | Some of this is silly. Now that's off the chest, the one specific issue that I would have with drawing errors and 'fit for purpose' is with safety. Many of the complex plans contained in ME include boilers. There are two issues with this. Firstly, plans may not comply with safety regulations or standards in different countries, and secondly, they reallly should be checked thoroughly against relevant standards in the UK before republishing - the standards may have changed. I do recognise that almost all of the discussion in forums like this around boilers highlights the issue and recommends an appropriate procedure - join an club and do the build under supervision of the boiler inspector. When I built mine, I had the original Harris book and the AMSBC code next to each other when I drew my plans, but its not certified. Over all, the plans are a great resource to understand how things work that are at an affordable price - I have one on the wall - a wooden toolchest that is an American classic. But then, I also have framed the tech school poster for the Hercus lathe in the shed. cheers |
JasonB | 11/05/2012 07:33:29 |
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Posted by Nathan Sharpe on 10/05/2012 22:42:22:
Drawings are and always have been a guide only, they are fit for that purpose, YOU have to provide the skill. If you can't is it you who's not "fit for purpose"?. So where does this leave the beginner? Nathan you are new here and may not have followed the portable engine threads for example, this is a model aimed specifically at the beginner and at times even I have found it hard to follow but have found many errors. These problems are what will drive beginners away as they will become despondant when things need remaking, don't fit and run poorly. There are many who don't want to be in a club so they will be left thinking its them who are "not fit" for model engineering and give up before they start. I agree we will never get rid of errors but now with teh net at least if problems are raised a bit of googling should find these problems before metal is cut and help others into the hobby. J |
Ady1 | 11/05/2012 07:54:35 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | I think you're over-analysing the situation Anyone taking up the hobby has to jump over a whole bunch of hurdles and acquire experience in various disciplines before deciding on taking a specific project and is well aware that there will be more unexpected hurdles to overcome before success is achieved
Model engineering is a hobby which is a challenge from day one If you don't thrive on solving real world problems and challenges you definitely won't make it in the hobby anyway
The biggest problem for the hobby now is government muppets: Diesel fuel restrictions for model engines Not allowed into scrapyards for access to cheap materials Boiler regulation issues
These problems are almost impossible to overcome because they are laws A few errors on a plan are the least of the hobbys problems
The first thing you have to consider is: Am I allowed to do that and how do I get around the legal barriers
I got a whole bunch of gear and plans together before discovering that model engine diesel fuel is virtually impossible to acquire because of government morons Project now abandoned Will revisit if I can acquire any fuel.
Other projects have been abandoned because of the recent Scrapyard laws. Big chunks of steel from a dealer aren't cheap, scrapyards were great for acquiring cheap metal, chopping it up...making a hash of it and getting more materials cheap for having another go
...problems with plans never came into it... problems with plans were the least of my problems Edited By Ady1 on 11/05/2012 08:09:36 |
David Hanlon | 11/05/2012 08:05:49 |
40 forum posts | So the discussion rumbles on, but with a twist regarding beginners and the Portable Engine. As a complete beginner myself (just completed a wobbler and working on trying to get parting off to work ...) Here is my opinion on this for what it is worth. 1. Thanks to the Author for spending the time and effort to write the thing in the first place, as a professional (not mechanical!) engineer I know the financial rewards for an article published in ME/MEW are no where near matching the time and effort required for this. 2. Thanks to David for starting the Portable Engine Thread which I have followed with interest. 3. Thanks to JasonB for his many inputs to that thread. and now we come to my contribution ... Combining all the above - my assessment was to leave this project well alone until a. The design settles down (you know - never buy version 1.0 of anything!) b. I have completed a few simpler projects ( A wobbler and a Stuart V10 (Thanks Cath!)) that are on the bench, What I would REALLY like to see would be for JasonB or some other experienced ME to get together with the original Author and with David, Build one of these and then write up his experiences so that us beginners can see how you transform published plans (warts and all) into a working model. Integrate that with the beginners series running in MEW at the moment and you have the start of a really good MODERN resource/training program/co-authored book aimed straight at beginners (well me at least)! Best Regards Dave |
Ian S C | 11/05/2012 13:57:44 |
![]() 7468 forum posts 230 photos | Nathan, you can't even rely on Airfix (etc), in my younger days I used to build Airfix models, I also used to get the RAF Flying Revue, it had a section on how to correct the mistakes in the models, as well as how to modifie a kit to produce a different version of the aircraft type. Mind you some Dinky Toys were wrong, and now are valuable collectors pieces. Ian S C |
Mark P. | 11/05/2012 20:34:45 |
![]() 634 forum posts 9 photos | You should have seen some of the drawings we got from Boeing and Airbus they were full of mistakes! Pailo. |
SteveW | 11/05/2012 21:17:31 |
![]() 140 forum posts 11 photos | How about a plan rating so that a beginners plan would be VERY WELL checked and as near to 100% as possible but some plans could be rated for the 'advanced modeller' and subject to a higher risk of error. Putting intp print a beginner's plan that has obvious errors was just not fair. And of course there will not (unlike drawings with issue and correction notices) be any real way for the beginner to get the PLAN corrected. He/she will be left to trawl through this forum or ensure he/she purchases future copies of the magasine in the hope that they will spot some notes at some time in the future. SteveW |
Steve Garnett | 11/05/2012 22:08:58 |
837 forum posts 27 photos |
Posted by David Hanlon on 11/05/2012 08:05:49:
What I would REALLY like to see would be for JasonB or some other experienced ME to get together with the original Author and with David, Build one of these and then write up his experiences so that us beginners can see how you transform published plans (warts and all) into a working model. Integrate that with the beginners series running in MEW at the moment and you have the start of a really good MODERN resource/training program/co-authored book aimed straight at beginners (well me at least)! On the face of it, this seems like a good idea, although it's not snag-free. The issue here comes down to in the end to the question 'what do I do, because x doesn't appear to make sense in the drawing?' - and the answer to that question is always going to be different. And, because everybody has different facilities available to them, some of the prescribed answers simply wouldn't fit; you'd clearly need to go further than that. And peoples' expectations vary (like the responses to this thread...); some people just want the answer spoon-fed to them, but others relish the prospect of solving problems for themselves. It's quite hard to say what I really want to here, because it almost sounds rude - but I believe that some people appear to have conceptual problems with problem-solving, and unless an article deals straight up with their particular problems, they're still stuffed - they can't universalise the advice given. So the whole thing's a bit of a Lion's den. But do we really need the article(s), or is there something available now? I'd suggest that we might already have a large chunk of it currently appearing in installments of MEW in the form of the Stepperhead series. Okay, I suspect that some have ignored it because they think it's CNC-based, and others think that it's seriously advanced, and are wondering why they'd ever want to build one. But for a beginner there's some seriously useful information there, because it describes, with drawings, the way it was actually made, and with useful machining tips, etc. So for anybody in the ab initio stage, very well worth reading, I'd say. As for the drawing errors thing in general, I'd say that the best thing you can do is teach yourself to draw, and then make the things you draw, preferrably six months after you've drawn them - that will teach you more about interpreting drawings than any article will! |
Martin Cottrell | 12/05/2012 00:30:12 |
297 forum posts 18 photos | Posted by Steve Garnett on 11/05/2012 2012 ...... some people just want the answer spoon-fed to them, but others relish the prospect of solving problems for themselves. It's quite hard to say what I really want to here, because it almost sounds rude - but I believe that some people appear to have conceptual problems with problem-solving, and unless an article deals straight up with their particular problems, they're still stuffed - they can't universalise the advice given. So the whole thing's a bit of a Lion's den. Steve, I don't think this is about the level of help (spoon-feeding) that beginners are expecting. If someone, beginner or experienced engineer alike, wishes to build an exact replica of something someone else has made he has two choices. He can either access the original model and dismantle it to take measurements and reproduce the parts or he can follow a set of plans which also provide him with those measurements. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that drawings will generally have been checked for accuracy and completness especially if the builder is paying for them either having bought the magazine or a set of plans from a third party. I understand that errors can sometimes creep in but I don't think that fact is necessarily pointed out to beginners. David Hanlon made the very good point that maybe articles intended for beginners should be scrutinised a lot more carefully prior to publication coupled with a beginners series that encourages the beginner to study the drawings as a collection of interlocking, interacting components rather than just a pictorial list of individual parts. I think beginners are looked down upon from some quarters in this hobby. It is just a hobby for many of us, we're not engineers by trade. We're not here to re-invent the wheel or jump through hoops solving riddles to achieve an end product we just want the satisfaction of having made something with our own hands. Ease us in gently and we'll more than likely come back for something more challenging, make it unnecessarily difficult and there are plenty of other pastimes waiting to take our hard earned cash! Regards, Martin |
John Haine | 12/05/2012 07:34:03 |
5563 forum posts 322 photos | Here is an idea - Open Source Drawings. Some of the best software around now is Open Source which anyone can download, use, modify, and (subject sometimes to conditions) re-distribute. There are some very good freedrawing packages around - e.g. SolidEdge. Anyone can download these and use them for non-commercial purposes, and anyway quite a few MEs now have CAD. So, if drawings were made available on-line in suitable format, then people finding errors could modify the drawings, improve them in other ways, submit them back with the changes to be incorporated in the orginal, and/or re-distribute them. There could be micro-businesses for those with CNC machines to make tricky or tedious components to order using CAM to generate Gcode from the drawing files (think, castings). All this is possible now, ME/MEW could facilitate this. Of course it might threaten part of their business, but as the saying goes, if you don't come to the banquet as a guest you are likely to be there as the meat. How about it, Dave? |
Nicholas Farr | 12/05/2012 08:22:19 |
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Posted by John Haine on 12/05/2012 07:34:03:
So, if drawings were made available on-line in suitable format, then people finding errors could modify the drawings, improve them in other ways, submit them back with the changes to be incorporated in the orginal, and/or re-distribute them. There could be micro-businesses for those with CNC machines to make tricky or tedious components to order using CAM to generate Gcode from the drawing files (think, castings).
Hi John, all very well, but the proverb; "Too many cooks............" springs to mind not to mention potentially many more mistakes and interpretations distributed. Regards Nick. |
Eric Cox | 12/05/2012 09:58:27 |
![]() 557 forum posts 38 photos | As with most forum posting the comments evolve and deviate from the original concept. In this case I wanted to highlight the fact that drawings were sold/published with obvious errors that could be recognised by simply looking at the drawing without the need of building the model or having a degree in drawing office practice, in other words, "proof reading". I don't expect to be "spoon fed" but do expect the drawings to be to a minimum standard or quality and free of "obvious" errors.
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Steve Garnett | 12/05/2012 10:16:28 |
837 forum posts 27 photos |
Posted by Martin Cottrell on 12/05/2012 00:30:12:
Steve, I don't think this is about the level of help (spoon-feeding) that beginners are expecting. If someone, beginner or experienced engineer alike, wishes to build an exact replica of something someone else has made he has two choices. He can either access the original model and dismantle it to take measurements and reproduce the parts or he can follow a set of plans which also provide him with those measurements. Hmm... so if people have a choice, and some are happy to resolve issues themselves and others aren't, it isn't about the level of help? Think you'll find it is... I don't disagree about drawings though - well, in principle, anyway. I'm not sure that I entirely agree about which drawings ought to be scrutinised more - I think that in an ideal world, they should all receive the same degree of scrutiny! The point about beginners being made more aware of the potential issues with drawings is well-made though; it takes a while to get into the swing of interpreting drawings, and even when you are used to this, you can still make mistakes with things like machining order, etc. And that's the point really - it's about levels of interpretation, and this will vary between individuals. There's a lot to be said, when supplying just a set of drawings, for supplying varying degrees of additional information - experienced builders won't necessarily need much, whilst beginners might need it almost step by step. And it may well be that the person who goes though a drawing preparing the step-by-step instructions is the one that discovers the mistakes...
I'm not for one moment suggesting that what David Hanlon wants is wrong, per se - just that it's not quite straightforward, and also that it's going to increase the cost of a set of drawings somewhat to include all this additional information. But that might be a good thing, because it would encourage people to discover and learn enough to be able to make models from a simpler, cheaper set, wouldn't it? I think that the whole issue has to be considered carefully, from more than one point of view, if it isn't going to create more heat than light, that's all. Regds, Steve
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Alan Jackson | 12/05/2012 11:20:36 |
![]() 276 forum posts 149 photos | I worked in various drawing offices for many years and checking drawings often took more time than drawing them and mistakes still got through the system. To sign off a drawing as checked meant that you were responsible for the design even though you were checking something that you thought was a bad design or idea it became your responsibility. There is always opinion in checking due to not liking the particular way it is designed (I would not have done it that way) and personal preference so it is a minefield for politics and dissent. Because the checking process was so time consuming and always at a time when everybody required the drawings yesterday the checking process was subject to, shall we say shortcuts. I was once asked to do an 80% check to save time. You know just check the bits that are wrong not all of it. The only way to find the bits that are wrong is to do a 100% check. I also do not think the process improved when computers replaced drawing boards. You could see at a glance on a drawing board if the draughtsman was up to scratch and this is completely masked in the uniformity of computer drawings they all look good. Regards Alan Edited By Alan Jackson on 12/05/2012 11:22:43 |
David Clark 1 | 12/05/2012 11:48:35 |
![]() 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Open Source modelling I have started a new thread on this topic First we need to decide on a model. Please use the new thread to discuss this. Put your reasons for and against suggested projects. I think the first few projects should be beginner related. Drawings should be in DXF format but can be posted here as jpeg. I can probably host DXF drawings at www.ml7.co.uk regards David Edited By David Clark 1 on 12/05/2012 11:54:25 |
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