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Metric vs Imperial - Practical or Traditional?

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Terryd06/12/2010 21:58:40
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Hi Dino,
 
(Hope you don't mind the shortening but my typing gets tired at this time of night). I'd certainly agree with you on the very small sizes but there are suppliers on the continent who will post to the UK and seem to be cheaper than here.
 
I think that hex head screws and bolts are very specialised and in quite small production runs.  Most very small stuff seems to be cross or torx heads.  I just think that we have to grit our teeth and bear it like it or not.  Actually I just looked at the Bruce Engineering catalogue on the Polly site and m1.2 (about 13BA)  set screws x 12 mm long are quoted as around 15p each for scale hex head rolled thread screws.  I didn't think that too bad.   But they're not ht.  The French supplier mentioned in another thread seem to have a good range of high spec screws at reasonable prices.
 
Terry
James Fair07/12/2010 10:08:29
3 forum posts
Ah, this is such fun! It's been going on for ages. If any care to look, there is an entry in the Book of Second Chronicles regarding Solomon's temple: "...the length in cubits by the former measurement being sixty cubits...". They had an old cubit of 20.4 inches (518.16mm) and a new cubit of 18 inches (457.2mm). Solomon, famous for his wisdom, stuck with the former measurement. He could not have foreseen inches and millimetres, but he built an awesome structure according to plans set down in writing by his father, King David. So, someday metres and feet may give way to some other system. And this debate will carry on.
Terryd07/12/2010 15:03:35
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
 Hi James,
 
So Solomon must have chosen between the Sumerian cubit (30 Digits 20.4") and the Greek Cubit (24, digits 463.1) which was used in ancient Greece in the 8thC BC.  He must have been an old man as he was supposedly around in the 10thC BC.  The only other cubit around in that century was the Egyptian Royal cubit (28 Digits or 20.64" or 525 MM) he probably rejected the latter as it could vary by 3mm.  Note there are more digits in the Sumerian even though it is longer.  They must have had smaller digits.
 
Mind you, if he had been around much later he would have been spoiled for choice with at least 17 different cubits around. But we'll probably not know for sure as no one has found any real evidence of a temple - yet.  Then we have the Ell, but let's not go there. 
 
As to metres and feet, the success of the metre is mostly due to the fact that there is a standard decided internationally and that standard recognised worldwide.  In an era of international trade and manufacture that is essential.  Much like the standardisation of time zones in the UK when the railways arrived (much to the chagrin of the Bristolians London time was chosen).  Unfortunately the foot, like the cubit never had an international standard. Britain, as usual decided theirs was superior and the others could lump it or like it.  Most lumped it and chose the metre.
 
However us modellers don't have to satisfy international standards and we can choose our own standards (at least as long as suppliers allow) be that the metre, foot, ell, cubit or barleycorn.  So just get on and enjoy modelling whatever you choose.  Good debate though, there's a lot of interesting stuff to learn.  Knowledge is never wasted. As the saying goes,"a mind is like a parachute,  most efficient when open".
 
Best regards,
 
Terry
Nicholas Farr07/12/2010 17:17:41
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi,
 
            Posted by Terryd 07/12/2010 15:03:35
     Good debate though, there's a lot of interesting stuff to learn.  Knowledge is never wasted. As the saying goes,"a mind is like a parachute,  most efficient when open".
 
                  Every day is a school day.
 
Regards Nick.
      
Stub Mandrel07/12/2010 20:40:16
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4318 forum posts
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1 articles
When one stops learning, one is dead.
 
Neil
larry Phelan25/08/2017 17:27:29
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544 forum posts
17 photos

It,s not just Europe,the whole world uses Metric,except for a few oddball places.

The other system died with the "Empire",it just has not been buried yet. !

Brian H25/08/2017 18:26:10
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2312 forum posts
112 photos

I don't think it's very helpful to be an 'Imperialist' or a 'metricist', I use whatever is most useful although tend to go with Imperial because ;

a) I'm used to it and the majority of my equipment is Imperial.

b) I model old engines that were built to the Imperial standard and that makes it easy to work to 1/8, 1/6 or 1/4 inches to the foot.t

There are occasions when a metric hole or thread fits where another size does not.

Brian

Mick B125/08/2017 19:09:48
2444 forum posts
139 photos
Posted by Brian Hutchings on 25/08/2017 18:26:10:

I don't think it's very helpful to be an 'Imperialist' or a 'metricist', I use whatever is most useful ...

...

Brian

Agree completely. My machine is metric, and there is a sensible range of small metric coarse threads which are suitable in the majority of cases. But there are some useful fine Imperial threads for which taps and dies are far more easily available than metric fine, and for that reason it sometimes makes sense to use them.

I'm fond of both - there's no sense in being a zealot.

One thing I do do when drawing - I denote the decimal point with a dot in Imperial, and a comma in metric, as I was required to do when I worked in a drawing office that used both - and if I use a dimension from the 'other' system in a drawing done in one, I'll put it in brackets with the unit alongside the dimension in the primary system, so that it's clear.

 

Edited By Mick B1 on 25/08/2017 19:18:37

Enough!25/08/2017 23:09:24
1719 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by larry Phelan on 25/08/2017 17:27:29:

It,s not just Europe,the whole world uses Metric,except for a few oddball places.



Define "the whole world". The US certainly doesn't and doesn't pretend to. Canada does pretend to - i.e. it's nominally metric - but the de-facto working system in Engineering is Imperial. Even in supermarkets it's no better than 50/50.

So maybe "the whole world except for a sizeable chunk"? smiley

Hopper26/08/2017 01:06:30
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7881 forum posts
397 photos
Posted by Bandersnatch on 25/08/2017 23:09:24:
Posted by larry Phelan on 25/08/2017 17:27:29:

It,s not just Europe,the whole world uses Metric,except for a few oddball places.



Define "the whole world". The US certainly doesn't and doesn't pretend to. Canada does pretend to - i.e. it's nominally metric - but the de-facto working system in Engineering is Imperial. Even in supermarkets it's no better than 50/50.

So maybe "the whole world except for a sizeable chunk"? smiley

But the US does use metric officially, it's just that they also use "customary measure" as well, making it one of those few oddball places in the quoted post.

Ian S C26/08/2017 12:56:26
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7468 forum posts
230 photos

You won't be metric until you go into the pub and order a litre of beer, instead of a pint.

My prefered tread system is UNF/C, I find that I like to use 1/8" W over 3 mm, but thats the only Whitworth size I use.

Ian S C

HOWARDT26/08/2017 14:15:42
1081 forum posts
39 photos

is the beer English or American, if American you were sold short !!

Samsaranda26/08/2017 14:26:01
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1688 forum posts
16 photos

I think I remember reading somewhere that America (I.e. USA) was the first country to officially adopt the metre standard and that was in the 1870's or 1880's; suffice to say their progress towards full metrification has been a little slow!!!

Dave

Meunier28/08/2017 16:13:14
448 forum posts
8 photos
Posted by Mick B1 on 25/08/2017 19:09:48:

One thing I do do when drawing - I denote the decimal point with a dot in Imperial, and a comma in metric, as I was required to do when I worked in a drawing office that used both..

Edited By Mick B1 on 25/08/2017 19:18:37

Same system applies when writing out a cheque in France,
e.g one thousand two hundred thirty-four euros and fifty-six centimes
would be written in UK as 1(comma)234(dot)56 but in France is written as 1(dot)234(comma)56
DaveD

Andrew Tinsley28/08/2017 17:28:02
1817 forum posts
2 photos

I was raised on both metric and imperial units. I don't have any preference for either system. If I am building a published design, then I use whatever system has been specified.

I have been able to get a lot of imperial tooling at relatively knock down prices, so I tend to use this system on most things I do. I also have a goodish range of metric tooling, so sometimes use this if the fancy takes me. It really is a totally non issue. Those that have been raised on metric measurement, let them use it, same goes for the users of the imperial system.

The one thing I will not do is to mix the two systems. I still find that nuts and bolts are readily available in Imperial sizes as is raw material, so if someone is kitted out with Imperial tooling, then what the hell does it matter if it is used? It really is up to the individual to do what he wants, that is the beauty of the hobby!

To read some of the answers given, it seems as if war has broken out. Get a life and do the engineering in whatever units you want!

Andrew.

Philip D28/08/2017 18:05:18
33 forum posts
Posted by Terryd on 06/12/2010 21:58:40:
Hi Dino,
 
(Hope you don't mind the shortening but my typing gets tired at this time of night). I'd certainly agree with you on the very small sizes but there are suppliers on the continent who will post to the UK and seem to be cheaper than here.
 
I think that hex head screws and bolts are very specialised and in quite small production runs. Most very small stuff seems to be cross or torx heads. I just think that we have to grit our teeth and bear it like it or not. Actually I just looked at the Bruce Engineering catalogue on the Polly site and m1.2 (about 13BA) set screws x 12 mm long are quoted as around 15p each for scale hex head rolled thread screws. I didn't think that too bad. But they're not ht. The French supplier mentioned in another thread seem to have a good range of high spec screws at reasonable prices.
 
Terry

Which French supplier as i can't find anything by searching the forum ??

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