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The perfect ME Lathe

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Roderick Jenkins18/07/2011 12:29:52
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2376 forum posts
800 photos
Let us assume that you are an entrepreneur who has identified a recently opened gap in the market for a premium lathe for the model engineer. What would be the specifications for this machine? Being a canny business man you have noticed that the market will not support a price of £8,000+.
 
Rod
David Clark 118/07/2011 12:53:15
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi There
It would need the same capacity as a Myford ML7as a minimum including the gap bed.
Alternatively, no gap and 125mm centre height.
Poly Vee belt drive. (Geared head to noisy in home environment.)
Lever or capstan feed tailstock.
Tee slotted cross slide.
Screw on chuck with locking mechanism so lathe can be run in reverse.
 
Optional
Single tooth dog clutch for leadscrew.
Screwcutting gears for imperial and metric.
Variable speed drive.
Back gear.
Bed stop as standard.
regards David
 
 
 
John Stevenson18/07/2011 12:59:16
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
Same as David but no screw on chuck, this is 2011 and the D and A series are very well established.
 
Decent travel on tailstock barrel, at least enough to reach the work !!
 
Integral 5C spindle bore
 
John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 18/07/2011 13:00:13

Chris B18/07/2011 14:00:27
34 forum posts
5 photos
Sounds very much like you are describing a modified Boxford ME10 but using the VSL headstock spindle to give L00 mounting and a large bore. If only they were still producing the belt drive machines.
 
It is a shame Boxfords did not have the same popularity as Myfords as they are a very capable machine.
mick18/07/2011 14:24:03
421 forum posts
49 photos
If your going to all the trouble of desigining the perfect lathe, then you should do away with change gears and have a decent tumbler gear box, with the cabability of delivering a good range of power feeds as well. One shot lubrication. Don't forget the powered cross slide, quick change and rear mounted tool posts. I'll proberly think of some more as soon as I've posted this!!
Roger Woollett18/07/2011 14:30:48
148 forum posts
6 photos
Why not take the opportunity to actually advance the technology:
Use a brushless DC motor with variable speed control like Arc Euro's recent offerings.
Scrap the change gears and fit a stepper motor to the leadscrew giving any pitch or feed rate you care to dial in.
Fit DROs to the saddle and cross slide as part of the design rather than as a bolt on extra.
Keith Long18/07/2011 14:52:06
883 forum posts
11 photos

Before we all get carried away defining our "perfect" model engineering lathe with gold plated bells and whistles, perhaps a cold hard look at what the market can support is called for.

How many machines a year can you sell at £8k+ - not enough to keep an established business going.

At £4k+ - quite a few more but probably no more than the low hundreds.

At £2K+ more than at £4k but even at this you'll probably have to sell world wide with all it's implications in order to get the sort of volume you'd need to meet this selling price, and remember this is the selling price to the end customer, if you're making them you'll need to do it, finished, for half that price in order to get a decent margin to pay for the factory unit, the heating, lighting etc.

Not a business proposition to take on lightly I think especially in the UK, Europe or the USA.

Keith

michael cole18/07/2011 15:00:16
166 forum posts
Geared head to noisy in home environment. No it is'nt. I run a Gearhead boxford and it is no more (and probley less) nosiy than a myford S7 i had. Added to which quick and easy speed change. D-13 camlock chuck. full gear box and large bore. The ideal lathe (for me ) a Boxford .
 
Mike
Roger Woollett18/07/2011 15:01:54
148 forum posts
6 photos
Keith we can all dream!
On your more serious point I agree, it is unlikely anyone would want to enter the quality end of the ME market. In any case there are a number of offerings already there. I have never used any of these but from the adverts Wabeco, Emco and Ceriani all seem to offer a better product than the standard chinese offerings. Obviously the price is higher.
 
John Stevenson18/07/2011 15:23:54
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Roger Woollett on 18/07/2011 15:01:54:
 
Emco and Ceriani all seem to offer a better product than the standard chinese offerings. Obviously the price is higher.
 
 
 
I bed to differ on this after having seen that cock up that Emco offered for a spindle design in a post on here.
 
Also before over specing a design look at what the Myford had to offer and that couldn't make it.
 
John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 18/07/2011 15:26:33

Keith Long18/07/2011 15:36:20
883 forum posts
11 photos

Hi Roger

No harm at all in dreaming, in fact it's essential to come up with a suitable spec For example the built in DRO's would probably at the moment push the price too high, but provision for fitting DRO's designed in from the start and available as an option from new and as an accessory for retrofit could make the basic machine much more affordable in the first place, and more versatile for users as time, funds and experience allow. We are seeing home cnc machines "off the shelf" becoming more affordable and the same technology will extend to lathes, we might just have to wait a bit.

Perhaps the people that you mention, Wabeco, Emco, Ceriani et al will decide that there is a gap to be filled with a suitable machine. They already have the distribution and service networks in place so should be better placed to respond. Another alternative is that the makers of the cheaper Chinese machines may realise that there is a market for a better finished, more robust machine and again respond to the challenge.

I think that if someone does go for the vacant niche they will have to invest in production tooling and methods that can produce a lathe without the need for extensive hand finishing and fitting - that really is expensive.

Keith

Chris B18/07/2011 15:46:11
34 forum posts
5 photos
Keith
 
That was why I mentioned the belt drive bench mount Boxford, they probably still have the tooling and could put it back into production if there was sufficent demand to fill the recently vacated niche.
 
Chris
blowlamp18/07/2011 17:07:58
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1885 forum posts
111 photos
I'm in agreement with many of the suggestion that have already been made, but here's my list of desirables.
 
Variable speed, with a couple of pulley ratios for extra torque and quiet running. No stripping to replace the belt.
Easy provision for indexing the spindle to enable graduating etc.
Camlock spindle (or even 3 stud fixing if easily accessible), with big bore.
 
Lever operated (or rack drive) tailstock quill with camlock clamp of tailstock to the bed.
 
Electronic leadscrew/feedshaft that replaces the gearbox and change wheels, to allow for any thread pitch, plus power cross-feed.
 
Substantial Inverted (hardened) Vee-bed, designed as far as possible to shrug off swarf from the ways. Plenty of saddle surface area in contact with the bed for low wear.
 
Tee-slotted (along its length) cross slide with top slide that has a long travel, with nice, meaty gib strips - taper type if possible.
 
The Sieg C4 seems to be going in the right direction - if only it were a little larger.
 
Martin.
Clive Hartland18/07/2011 17:43:45
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2929 forum posts
41 photos
Dream on, Dream on. No one lathe has all the desirable specification but a large bore spindle is a must for me and cam loc or stud chuck mounting.
Slotted cross slide and compatable accessories to go with it. Tail stock to be substantial and of decent quill travel.
The drive to be fully variable and the lead screw to be electronic thread count.
One more important thing is a chuck back plate pre-drilled with 60 holes for indexing which a lot of you have missed out!
 
Clive, Oh, and less than £3000 cost, dream on!
Gray6218/07/2011 18:22:47
1058 forum posts
16 photos
Many of the chinese lathes are getting very close to an ideal machine, build quality aside!
DRO's are nice but not a necessity, I have been aking accurate parts for years without one on my lathes. Accurate dials and a reasonable brain work just as well.
Camlock mounting is essential, the screw on chucks of Myford et al are dated and potentially dangerous.
Geared head with a 2 stage belt drive to extend the range gives the majority of speeds required by most model engineering disciplines, maybe a belt change system akin to the tri-leva system would be a distinct advantage.
 
A quick release clutch and a single point dog clutch on the feed screw are essential.
 
Geared head lathes are not necessarily noisy, or inconducive to a domestic environment.
My Warco GH lathe is very quiet, ( in fact I often work late at night and none of my neighbours have heard any unduly disturbing noises) well, not form the lathe anyway LOL.
 
To compete with far eastern manufacturing will be very difficult in the current economic climate.
 
For a quarter of the cost of a top end Myford, I bought a large capacity machine which met most of my requirements. Whatever is missing can be easily manufactured for very little financial outlay and will still surpass the capabilities of a Myford.
 
Don't get me wrong, I grew up with Myfords and have recently acquired an ML7 with a Tri-Leva selector. This will be a refurb project although mostly cosmetic, as there is no detectable wear on any of the critical components.
 
As the drawings and rights to design for the Myford lathe have now been bought out, I would suspect we will see far eastern clones appearing in the near future at a lower price, albeit with possibly a lesser attention to detail and quality.
 
We can all dream of the ultimate machine but that will attract the ultimate price.
 
I dream of a DSG or a Monarch 10ee but I doubt if I will ever own one, so I will continue to buy what I can afford and modify to suit.
 
regards
 
CB
Michael Gilligan18/07/2011 19:08:53
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23121 forum posts
1360 photos
CoalBurner says: "Many of the chinese lathes are getting very close to an ideal machine, build quality aside!"

... which nicely sums up the essence of our problem.

As John Ruskin is oft-quoted:

1. ?There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.?

2. "The bitterness of poor quality Lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."


There are excellent notes on the "preparation" reqiured before use of the Chinese machines, on ArcEuroTrade's site.
... for proper comparison, we must include the cost of doing this work.

MichaelG.
Jeff Dayman18/07/2011 19:39:33
2356 forum posts
47 photos
Well for me the prime requirement of any machine tool is rigidity. One of my major complaints about Far East lathes is that they fasten the headstock on to many of them with a couple of setscrews and a clamp underneath. One I saw had ONLY the setscrews fastening the headstock on. The beds are usually not beefy or X braced in the casting underneath either. The bed needs to be well designed and made in heavy cast iron in my opinion, not lightened for cheaper shipping. Bed does not need to be hardened for hobby use but if it is, fine.
 
Second pet peeve about these machines is the very tall compound rest with a tiny saddle area supporting it down to the bed. No rigidity there at all.
 
10" swing (and motor with ballocks to drive it) would be great, 9" is minimum.
 
As others have said a good big spindle hole is very handy, ie 3/4" min , 1 1/16" is better.
 
Camlock chuck for sure.
 
Powered cross slide is a must.
 
Belt or gear main drive is fine these days, I personally don't want any complicated stepless brusher variable delinquency frive or other complicated electronical motor trickery that will go >poof< in ten years and no spares to fix it. Just a plain dumb reversible industrial single phase motor, with back gear and tumbler gearbox on the lathe is fine. 2 speed back gear would be a dream for that 10" swing...
 
Taper attachment would be a boon as well.
 
Just my 2 cents - your mileage may vary....
 
JD
Billy Mills18/07/2011 20:04:40
377 forum posts
Here's another go!

1 DC brushless drive with 2 belts to two wheels dog clutch for Hi/Lo and instant stop, encoder wheel on spindle and brake to clamp spindle allows indexing of chuck.
.
2 Leadscrews with steppers and anti backlash nuts, encoder counting for DRO so electronic leadscrew and full anythreadyoucanthinkof screwcutting.
 
3 Expanding single post toolholding a la Mike Cox exchangable for tool changer add on.
 
4 NO top slide- don't need it, with stepper drive to saddle and cross slide you dial in the taper.
 
5 Headstock and ways might be skimmed plate on rectangular tube filled with epoxy granite
 
6 Camlock Chuck, ER accessory and big hole down spindle to take plug for C5's so Sir John don't moan ( can't G/tee this).
 
7 So you get rid of the expensive mechanical bits,replace with cheap as chips bits, take whole thing upmarket as it is a CNC lathe with manual drive.
 
8 Market it WORLDWIDE at a fair price. three sizes, Micro 2" swing, 6" swing 14" swing
 gapless bed. ( much stiffer for material cost and weight)
Only thing to stop it is that we are too stupid in the UK to get up and go.But we might be able to buy it from China in a year or two although they would cast it conventionally. ( Most of the heavy metal in a lathe does very little to add stiffness because it is too far from the spindle/ways/saddle/toolholding loop.)
 
 
Happy dreaming
Billy
 
 
 

Edited By Billy Mills on 18/07/2011 20:11:40

JasonB18/07/2011 20:18:28
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25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
Billy sound like you want a small XYZ Proturn Does most of what you describe and available now from taiwan.
 
J
Peter G. Shaw18/07/2011 20:23:03
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1531 forum posts
44 photos
My ideal lathe would be a metric Boxford ME10A. Mind you, I'm not sure if SWMBO would agree the present day cost!
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw

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