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Drawing projection, first or third?

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David Clark 123/02/2010 20:13:49
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Hi There
What is the projection used most in industry in the UK?
Is it first or is it third.
Having learnt engineering in an American company in the UK we used both types of drawings, whatever was supplied.
If we did not understand the drawing, we went and found one of the same projection type that we did understand so we could compare views.
 
If we were totally stuck, out came the plasticene and a 'sample component' was quickly made to check the projections were correct.
regards david
 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/02/2010 20:14:25

Tony Pratt 123/02/2010 21:10:01
2319 forum posts
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Hi David, I work for an American aircraft interiors manufacturer and we use 3rd angle on all new projects. My son is doing an engineering design course at college and they use 1st angle almost all the time, sorry to be no help at all! I personally prefer 3rd angle but thats all it is, a personal preference. I would guess both are still widely used?
 
Tony
Bill Pudney23/02/2010 21:26:56
622 forum posts
24 photos
Hi David,
I was a draftsman in the UK and here in Australia, from the 1960's to the 1990's.  At one stage I was contracting so I spent six months here and six months somewhere else, so I became fairly versatile!!.  Most companies here now use 3rd Angle, which if I remember  correctly used to be called "American Projection", where 1st Angle used to be called "English Projection".
If I had to make a choice I would have to plump for 3rd Angle as to me it seems more logical. 
cheers
Bill Pudney
Adelaide, Australia
Julie23/02/2010 21:30:34
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We originally used first angle, being a traditional UK company, but in about 1980 we changed the format to third for all new drawings, this IIRC was due to a strong recommendation in the BS for drawing practice - which I believe eventually became the default "standard".
 
Since then I haven't really taken much notice, when I have I have seen both flavours probably  fairly equally
 
Julie
 
(I don't really get involved with shop floor stuff through work anymore)  
Julie23/02/2010 21:34:06
24 forum posts
1 photos
Bill,
 
I also remember first being called normal and English with third being called American   
 
Julie 
Steve Garnett23/02/2010 22:23:22
837 forum posts
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I don't have BS308 here, but I do have a copy of the primer based on it intended for schools and colleges (PP7308). It doesn't appear to be particularly biased in either direction, although it does say quite clearly that having mixed projections on one drawing is undesirable.
 
The only other thing it says on the subject is that if, exceptionally, a view cannot be shown in its correct projected position, that the direction of viewing given should be shown clearly.
But hey, it's a student primer so you have to forgive it for stating the blindingly obvious!
KWIL23/02/2010 22:53:57
3681 forum posts
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I have always used 3rd angle projection ever since the 1950s, then in the UK electronics/defence industries.

Edited By KWIL on 23/02/2010 22:54:14

Gone Away23/02/2010 23:08:32
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I live in Canada where 3rd angle projection is used exclusively (as in the US).
 
Before I came to Canada in 1968 from the UK, I learned drafting (sorry draughting) both in school and at university and in each case was taught 3rd angle in addition to 1st on the grounds that, although 1st angle was used traditionally in the UK at that time, there was an increasing trend towards the use of 3rd angle which was likely to continue. That was  40-odd years ago. I read somewhere recently that 3rd angle now predominates in the UK but I can't recall where I saw it or how reliable the source might be.
 
Does the fact that you asked, David, tie in with the drawings published in the magazines? Given my almost exclusive use of 3rd angle over the years, I'm naturally most fluent with that but I can (and do)  handle 1st angle easily enough (I just have to remember not to get too automatic about it). What is a real problem (for anyone, I imagine) is mixed projection ... and it has happened in the past.
 
BTW, the spell-checker accepts "drafting" but barfs on "draughting" (though not on "barf" apparently)
David Clark 124/02/2010 08:44:36
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Hi There
When I took over Model Engineer, I am fairly sure that I was told we use first angle only so that is what I did when I did the drawings for the lubricator and Rina which have not been published yet. Looks like we should be using 3rd angle. I will see if I can get them changed.
Might not be perfect as we only have time to swap views over, not redraw.
 
regards David
 
KWIL24/02/2010 09:26:03
3681 forum posts
70 photos
David,
 
If you look at the drawings inserted in the early MEW mags they are 3rd angle.
Peter Gain24/02/2010 10:37:21
103 forum posts
David,
I do not like the Americanisation of our language & culture but (grudgingly) admit that "They" are sometimes right. 3rd angle projection is far more logical as the end views are adjacent to the relevant portion of the side elevation. Ie, the product is drawn as an unfolded box. We were using 3rd angle in the 19 fifties, surprising that anyone still uses 1st.
Architectural drgs often have mixed views, the side & end elevations & roof in 3rd angle but the floor plan drawn below is 1st. For buildings this is a logical method & avoids an inverted plan view.
Peter Gain.
Eric Cox24/02/2010 11:30:47
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I would have thought ensuring the dimensions were correct and non missing to be more important than which projection to use.
By the way, how were you able to make a " sample component " if you didn't understand the drawing ? 
Gordon W24/02/2010 11:50:40
2011 forum posts
I'm an ex draffy, did it most of my life. Always get confused over projections. Golden rule is if there can be any doubt, use an arrow to indicate the view. Drawings go all over the world and many standards are in use. Note to the ed, please put center lines on round bits.
Circlip24/02/2010 12:23:30
1723 forum posts
Snap Gordon, beat me to it, put "View in direction of arrer" on the drawing and avoid the confusion. Ex drafty also. In "Technical drawing" at school, we were allus brunged up wi First angle or "English" projection and when going to "Tech" it was a daily bone of contention between the two factions who worked in D/O's where one or the other was the norm.
 
  The Arrer don't lie.
 
   I think todays electronic Etch-a-sketch drivers would have a good cry if they got  graphite on their arms. Gawd elp us when some bright spark decides to start putting geometric tolerancing on our "Toy" drawings.
 
  Regards  Ian.
David Clark 124/02/2010 13:06:09
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Hi Eric
We used the drawing as a guide and making the component helped us to understand it.
regards David
 
James B24/02/2010 13:09:20
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Hi David,
 
I work in the Automotive industry as a CAD designer, have worked for most of the large OEMs on a contract basis over a number of years. I many cases now, a 2D drawing is not even used, the 3D CAD being the master data. The systems used provide highly controlled surface data, that the toolmakers generate cutter paths from on thier CNC machines, and the parts are generated from this.
 
2D's are still used, but mainly for inspection, i.e. the critical dimensions for fit and function on the part. These are always (in my experience) 3rd angle - with the geometric tolerancing included...
 
Although I feel 3rd Angle is much more logical, I don't think there would be any confusion if we established a 'standard' for the magazine and stuck to it.
 
Also, I don't agree with some of the views in the magazine recently about the poor quality of drawings - this is, after all, a hobby, and as long as you can make the component, all is well. Personally, I have never found any issues that could not be worked out with a little thought, that in some cases is some of the appeal of the hobby (for me anyway).
 
Circlip - Sorry. I am, ashamedly, an Etch a Sketch driver... but I did do a 'proper' draughtsman apprenticeship - and I only do this to pay the bills...!  GIven the choice I'd be in the workshop on my old, non computer controlled machines...
 
James
 
Peter G. Shaw24/02/2010 13:27:14
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Well now, as a rank amateur with no training on drafting other than what I was told (ie didn't particularly learn!) at secondary school, I have had to teach myself.
 
Tubal Cain, in his book Workshop Drawing (WSP13) says that he finds 1st angle instinctive and always uses it. I have to say that I don't find it instinctive, rather I find 3rd angle instinctive in  that to me it makes absolute sense that when drawing a view at right angles to the main view, that view should be as if I was looking at the relevant side, and placed at the same side. (Sorry if that doesn't make sense - I know what I mean!)
 
I do agree though, that what is extremely important is to show the appropriate 1st/3rd angle symbol to avoid ambiguity.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
ps. Especially to Circlip. I use a CAD program. Occasionally I may do a pencil sketch, but if you could see the poor quality of my handwork, you would immediately realise why I use the CAD program. I have no doubt that I could learn to do proper pencil & paper drawings, but at my stage in life I am simply not interested in doing so when the CAD program does it so much more easily, and allows me to develop my ideas without having to use an eraser and shield. 
 

David Clark 124/02/2010 13:40:49
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3357 forum posts
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10 articles
Hi There
Looks like 3rd angle is the winner.
Bear in mind that we can't redraw all drawings to 3rd angle.
We will still have to rely on contributors.
However, when I get a bit of spare time, I will add some notes for drawings to  the contributor guidelines.
regards David
 
Tony Martyr24/02/2010 13:44:31
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All the drawing that I now see that originate from an automotive customer based in China are in first angle projection.
During my apprenticeship in the 1960s all drawings for commercial and admiralty turbine and gearing work was in 3rd angle
Now most design work is carried out in SolidWorks or similar software which makes much of the discussion irrelivant
As long as any project uses a consistence policy and all drawings are marked with the projection used then engineers should be able to use both or either.
Tony M 
Versaboss24/02/2010 15:53:38
512 forum posts
77 photos

Hi all,

I think I have to drop in here too. Like P.G. Shaw, I cannot draw manually (and not much better with CAD!).

But in the last 10 years I saw a lot of drawings for parts I had to produce, and these were always in first angle. Sure I first had to look at the definitions in Wikipedia to be sure.

The way I was teached to look at them was like that (hope I can explain it clearly):

Lay the part on any of the 3 views, so that the picture corresponds with what you see. Then tilt the part over to the 2nd drawing, and tilt again  to the 3rd.

With tilt I mean e.g. keep the edge on the paper and rotate the part 90 degrees around that edge. All clarity removed now... For me this method is intuitive also.

Well, no matter how it is done in 'our papers', but - as others said before - it should be marked clearly.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

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