British machine tools

I agree absolutely bob, and at least when "something drastic" happens, you have got something that is worth repairing, I have yet to see anything from china/taiwan/far east that can hold a candle anywhere near a British machine for accuracy and build quality. Myfords always were overpriced, and over rated anyway ( asbestos undies firmly on). A good man on a Boxford can make just the same parts, and have a LOT of change to spend on tooling! Harrison are still plentiful, and I don't see any shortage of Colchesters either. You can do small work on a bigger lathe far easier than you can do big work on a small lathe. Having made all these inflammatory comments I will miss the "war" as I am now going to spend the next week at the green man festival in wet Welsh Wales, which will include a trip into Abergavenny on the wednesday for the Awesome fleamarket in the market hall.There is a tool stall or three, the quality is good, and the prices too!, be back next Monday with trench foot and rising damp up ter me knees! Remember the old adage, " if you build it right, its not cheap, if you build it cheap, it's not right. The rain has stopped, and I going to load my trailer.

Phil

Are they still trading? If you do a company search for them you find that the company has been dissolved.

Russell.

**LINK** ??

I couldn't agree more Rod. Businesses managed by bean counters who learn simple arithmetic and think they are mathematicians tend to ignore the advice of their engineers. Accountants should provide a service to the company - not control it!

Russell.

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Russell,

Take a look here, for Dean Smith & Grace

There has obviously been some restructuring ... but that's nothing unusual.

MichaelG.

Granted a DS&G from pre war Britain will still be some use, or so big industry has a demand for them i can see now how oil country lathes are keeping that company alive

But as hobbiests there's nothing left for you it is literally becoming scrap iron you have to laugh when you see machinery dealers asking 3k for a clapped out chipmaster or harrison m300 ,When I worked in heckmondwike there used to be beds sat at the back of Morrisons seasoning for 10 years before they were ground and scraped in ,in the 90s beds were cast in china they were shit, they came off the boat and got ground i could tell you stories of how they would be ground and twisted by the next day but by then the writing was on wall ,the Bean counters couldn't give a damn (and the men doing the job didn't either ,their pride in workmanship had been removed by managements attitude of "your lucky to be working" unless the books were balanced

A late model harrison is literally a bag of shit ,an early one most likely worn to within an inch of its life if wasnt sold to a school and then we all love a school machine thats been underused but crashed 50 times

, i agree with Bogs disposable society means you will hear people sucjh as on here lament the death of what they knew but things move on, if we buy an 80k CNC machining centre we are quite safe in the knowledge its going to have a useful life of 5 years before its done its work they are disposable items ,then get passed on to the hobbiest whos just happy to have CNC capability

I bought a Boxford 280 nearly new about 2 years ago ,theres already wear in it and play that shouldn't really be considering its used for odd jobs, 2 years old ,as far as quality, i would have been no worse buying from Chester or Warco and buying new every 2-3 years

One day someone will bring back manufacturing machine tools at the hobbiest level or at least a serious level after all the cost of these things goes up yearly I recall when a 25lv mill was 700 quid they are touching 1k now we already proved we can compete with the taiwanese in some markets when we reshored our companies manufacturing but it still remains if the market will pay the price afterall you can buy anything pretty much cheaper

I doubt it. I don't suppose the guy making Cowells is raking in a vast profit (and they cost near enough as much as a Myford was at the end). The main hobby lathe market is probably in the US. I can't imagine that we will end up exporting there (unless we become a third world economy ).

Rod

No one seems to have mentioned, (unless I have missed it) RDG tools in Mytholmroyd, who now own the Myford name, and all the remaining Myford stock, their website shows brand new machines and picture galleries of gearboxes being manufactured. I have recently bought a late model Speed 10, in perfect condition with a load of new accessories for a grand, and am over the moon with it, no comparison when put against my mates Chester machine.

**LINK**

RDG seem to have stalled after an initial enthusiasm the pictures have been on display for many months now with no change. John Bloor who brought Triumph back to life invested many millions in the design of an up to date range of motorcycles and leading edge manufacturing equipment and processes. The Myford post war lathes took a leap forward compared to the pre war offerings of Myford and other manufacturers of that type of lathe. If a market is out there for high quality small lathe it is probably time to go back to the drawing board and design a lathe for the 21st century. As a large number of the jobs tacled on a myford were too big for the lathe it would perhaps make sense to make a 41/2" or 5" lathe. As most hobbyists have a milling machine of some sort maybe the wide range of accessories offered for the myford could be dropped. But design in easy fitting of a DRO or CNC which are aspired to by many especially the next generation. A simple upgrade kit for a DRO endorsed by the manufacturer or a simple replacement of ballscrews for CNC and ready made locations for stepping motors or servos and encoders would perhaps be attractive to the modern lathe buyer. Boxford chased the market for educational CNC but all but abandoned the manual home user. Maybe there is a market for a machine to cover these niches.

Mike

I would agree with that Mike but Triumph are competing on level terms with other manufacturers in quality machines and doing well. Certain models use good Kawasaki imported engines though they do make their own as well.

Daytona around £9300, Hyosung GT650 £3600 loosing two thirds value within 12 months. **LINK**# against **LINK**

To my knowledge theres no quality new manual machinery available as there was 20/30 years ago and what would the price be £10k against an import £1500.

Looking on their site ML7 £8K who in their right mind would fork out for that when could have a good machine such as an almost mint ML300 from a dealers at an inflated price of £4k. Paid £850 for mine 4 years ago and would be on my 3rd import by now at over £3.5k a throw.

To give you some idea of the price hiking was looking at one of these in 2000 when needed a replacement lathe pronto at £1300. My wages hasn't increased since then but look at todays price £2248 as it was two years ago **LINK** Crusader was £1850, CUB £2300 with indifferent spindle nose. Draw your own conclusions why the machines have almost doubled in price. In the paid over the odds £900 for a Harrison 140, needed pronto and made last 10 years before scrapping it.

What the cheap imports have done is allow the diy/hobbiest modern looks at an affordable price. A proper engineering company would only buy a robust machine that would last. Downtime costs money especially when cant get the parts and if are available get ripped off ie RF25 from MM was £650 new, within 12 months new motor £256. Likewise Super Lux paid £930, transfer box (just the gears for elevated head) £244 four years ago when machine was still £1500.

If I could power it I would have a 50" British made Triumph tomorrow. Used to do small work more suited to toy lathes on two of these. One sold three months ago for £300, beds good as was everything else.

I think it is an urban myth about Triumph using Kawasaki parts. John Bloor was wise to drop all the old Triumph models and just keep the best bit which was the name. Myford developed the 254 but the price was way out of reach of most hobby buyers and the asian manufacturers already had their foot well inside the door. Maybe an affordable British made machine is just a dream. Triumph identified markets around the world before they started work. A new British lathe would need to think globally, after all that is what the competition are doing.

Mike

Edited By Michael Poole on 10/08/2014 22:49:08

My personal opinion and more of a sensible conclusion to my earlier rant on this hot topic,

British engineering AND manufacturing is currently finding its way deep in to reliability critical areas, we're responsible for some of the most critical subsea gas and oil equipment where failure is not an option, add to that our involvement in industrial valves, mechanical and pneumatic handling, pelleting, solid (bio) injection systems, manufacturing for UK & US defence ,

It's all big business, its wealthy business and it's ensuring we spend less time doing smaller stuff these days (machine tools, especially small affordable stuff sadly) and more time raking in the 7/8/9 figure bespoke jobs around the world, usually, designing and consulting and not actually manufacturing unless it's really reliability critical.

I think the end result is, we can't afford our own quality, and we're looking way down on what's been offered to us - a good thing surely??

I think if you were actually sat in the pub we used to go in (the little george on moor end lane)and actually worked in the place that made them your view would be more accurate than it is

even by their own admission the board tried to pull a PR stunt by saying we hold our hands up ,it was a mistake going to china

Edited By mike mcdermid on 11/08/2014 18:57:43

Edited By jason udall on 11/08/2014 19:23:32

Just a little tale I was told on a lathe manufacturer's trade stand when enquiring about collets. Their collets were made by a small firm in the south of England that owned and operated from a small fine mill building. One day a developer came along and offered them a lot of money for the building, far more than they made from making bits. The owner sold out, took the money and the mill building was now an up-market block of flats. Everybody was happy!

JA

Edited By JA on 11/08/2014 19:51:21

what a wonderful eclectic post

I'm waiting to finish the workshop so my Marantz can go in there so I can listen to my LPs again whilst hobby engineering away, will be great to get the Led Zep, Floyd and Cream spinning again

on the quality front I studied this for my masters degree and the Japanese learnt quality control from Deming after the war then took it to new levels by marrying their love of individual skill with companies run by engineers not "professional" managers, all the senior managers were engineers and understood the manufacturing process

when they wanted to develop the video recorder the Japanese companies go together to agree a technical specification which they would all use then they would compete on quality and enhancements

as regards machinery I bought an old British lathe and after some five years since doing that have realised it has some accuracy issues especially a worn tailstock which I haven't helped by breaking the clamp!

looking at the prices of Warco etc it seems I will be saving up for quite a while to buy one of these "cheap" Far Eastern machines

John

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That would be all of them except Sony

... remember Betamax ???

MichaelG.

I remember the earnest discussions about which was best.!

Edited By V8Eng on 11/08/2014 22:17:05