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Oil or Grease?
| EtheAv8r | 29/06/2011 14:08:41 |
 111 forum posts 3 photos | Posted by blowlamp on 29/06/2011 13:20:55:
Posted by EtheAv8r on 29/06/2011 12:53:12:
Posted by blowlamp on 29/06/2011 11:31:50:
I don't think any grease should be used on the scroll or jaws because it will hold on to the swarf.
My Wabeco lathe has fresh, clean light coloured grease on the scroll - delivered as such from new, prepared and ready to go.
Well naturally it's your call, but if you bore say a brass bush in your chuck, you'll get a lot of swarf accumulating on the inside which will work its way towards the scroll. Once it's there it sticks to the grease and is carried around by the scroll when the job's released.
Could that grease be for corrosion protection during transport?
Martin. The grease was not the transport gunk... and this was a fully prepared ready to fly machine, unless that job was not done thoroughly? Which is why I made the Original Post - Oil or Grease - but opinion seems to be mixed.... The idea of a dry lubricant makes a lot of sense to me - but there again I am not an engineer and basically I know nothing... |
| Ian S C | 29/06/2011 14:18:52 |
 7468 forum posts 230 photos | I use ordinary general purpose grease inside the chuck, not on the scroll side, that gets oiled. I clean it out at least once a year, depending on the amount of use, and whether I'v been turning a lot of cast iron. Grease is what was in there, so gease is what goes back in there! Ian S C Edited By Ian S C on 29/06/2011 14:22:59 |
| blowlamp | 29/06/2011 14:24:55 |
 1885 forum posts 111 photos | OK, but it may help to remember that grease is just oil that has been thickened in consistencey to help it stay put.
So if you can put a film of oil on something and have it stay there, why would you use grease?
All I'm arguing is that a thin layer of oil is sufficient to keep your chuck running smooth, without the tendency for swarf to stick.
I agree with those that advocate dry(ish) lubricants for this application.
Martin. |
| Keith Long | 29/06/2011 16:41:00 |
| 883 forum posts 11 photos | Hi Has anyone tried powdered graphite for this application - you can still get it from locksmiths. Keith |
| KWIL | 29/06/2011 16:55:51 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | As you all say, chucks are expensive things and need to be kept in a good state for longevity and accuracy. IF Pratt Burnerd thought that all these other alternatives were suitable, then surely they would have packaged some of it under their name and sold it to you, but they dont. So I think I will stick with the correct black stuff on my PB chucks. |
| Steve Garnett | 29/06/2011 19:31:24 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by KWIL on 29/06/2011 16:55:51: IF Pratt Burnerd thought that all these other alternatives were suitable, then surely they would have packaged some of it under their name and sold it to you, but they dont. So I think I will stick with the correct black stuff on my PB chucks. Whilst your confidence in P-B is very touching, I think that it's rather more likely that they'd recommend the stuff that they, or one of their subcontractors, were making the biggest markup on. If somebody made stuff with exactly the same content and marketed it at a fraction of the price, do you really think they'd recommend it? Neither do I... The problem with the solid phase lubricants on their own is actually getting them to stick to the parts you need to lubricate. PTFE (Teflon) has been noted in the past for 'clumping', which isn't particularly helpful - molybdenum disulphide, on the other hand, is very much like graphite and a really thin smear of this, worked in, is almost unbeatable as a dry lubricant - much better than PTFE, anyway. All you have to do is find a way of getting it there. The thing about brass swarf is a bit moot, I feel. Chances are that if you are producing this inside your chuck, then it will settle on the horizontal edges of the scroll anyway, and regardless of any other considerations, you shouldn't leave it there. But I'd still rather get it coated with a bit of moly grease than have it in there dry - the grease is just as capable of lubricating the swarf as well, and in that state it will probably cause less wear until cleaned out, I would have thought. I'm not an expert in tribology, but it does seem that to a degree with chuck lubrication, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. My take on it is that a really thin smear of moly grease on all of the interfacing parts is likely to leave enough solid lubricant on the mating surfaces to do an adequate job of reducing wear, and if you do a lot of brass stuff or anything else that produces dust, then you should be cleaning out your chucks and re-lubricating regularly anyway - that's just plain common sense (unless you're very rich). And that's not cleaning them out by blasting compressed air in either - that can often make things a lot worse. |
| chris stephens | 30/06/2011 00:26:16 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Keith,
Yes, how about you?
chriStephens
|
| Keith Long | 30/06/2011 09:47:08 |
| 883 forum posts 11 photos | Hi Chris I've not tried it yet but I've a number of chucks that need servicing. Just seemed to me reading above that a non-sticky lubricant was what was required and that's why I thought of the powdered graphite and wondered if it would work. It looks as though chucks have some of the same problems as locks - you want lubrication, but don't want anything that will hold dust, grit etc that can gum up the works - and yes I appreciate that the surface loadings are very different. in the two applications. Keith |
| EtheAv8r | 30/06/2011 11:39:02 |
111 forum posts 3 photos | The following, extracted from http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/solidlub.htm ...may be of interest:
On Graphite:
"Graphite is best suited for lubrication in a regular atmosphere. Water vapor is a necessary component for graphite lubrication. The adsorption of water reduces the bonding energy between the hexagonal planes of the graphite to a lower level than the adhesion energy between a substrate and the graphite." Because water vapor is a requirement for lubrication, would this potentially encouage rust?
On Molybdenum Disulfide:
"MoS2 is a mined material found in the thin veins within granite and highly refined in order to achieve a purity suitable for lubricants. Just like graphite has MoS2 a hexagonal crystal structure with the intrinsic property of easy shear. MoS2 lubrication performance often exceeds that of graphite" On Application methods:
"Spraying/dipping/brushing: Dispersion of solid lubricant as an additive in oil, water or grease is most common used. For parts that are inaccessible for lubrication after assembly a dry film lubricant can be sprayed. After the solvent evaporates, the coating cures at room temperature to form a solid lubricant. Pastes are grease like lubricants containing a high percentage of solid lubricants used for assembly and lubrication of highly loaded, slow moving parts. Black pastes generally contain MoS2"
Based on comments from this post, plus information from the above link, I would think that Molybdenum Disulfide assembled as a dry film lubricant and sprayed lightly would be the best solution? |
| Steve Garnett | 30/06/2011 13:42:24 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by EtheAv8r on 30/06/2011 11:39:02: Based on comments from this post, plus information from the above link, I would think that Molybdenum Disulfide assembled as a dry film lubricant and sprayed lightly would be the best solution? From different sources, that was pretty much the conclusion that I reached... |
| EtheAv8r | 30/06/2011 14:30:39 |
111 forum posts 3 photos | Steve
The benefit to me is that when I originally posted I did not have a clue, however as a result of responses and pointers I was able to dig further and come to a satistactory conclusion that I feel can't be too far off a reasonable mark.
In just a couple or three days I have gone from clueless to slightly clued up.
Such is the value and benefit of this forum.
Thank you every body who contributed. |
| Bogstandard | 30/06/2011 17:26:25 |
| 263 forum posts | Just to throw a spanner in the works. Why have some of my chucks got ball oilers around the outside edge? I just pop a tiny squirt of Tellus 32 (medium hydraulic oil) into them every so often, and have never had any trouble at all, even on my 5C collet chuck, except for getting a bit of oil spray when doing the initial starts after lubing. When I do my occasional chuck servicing, I've never ever found any more than a tiny bit of fine swarf inside, so methinks there is a bit of panic and here-say going on here. Bogs |
| Steve Garnett | 30/06/2011 19:23:13 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by EtheAv8r on 30/06/2011 14:30:39: Steve The benefit to me is that when I originally posted I did not have a clue, however as a result of responses and pointers I was able to dig further and come to a satistactory conclusion that I feel can't be too far off a reasonable mark. That's the thing really - being able to work out what the issues are from a few clues, and making a decision based on that. It's also good, and useful, to hear the opinions that differ too, though - definitely helps with clarifying your thoughts! Over the years, I've cleaned out quite a few chucks, and the amounts of crud in them have varied quite a bit. In part this has depended on the type of chuck; on the Kerry I have a 3-jaw Taylor chuck, and this almost looks as though it was designed to keep most turning debris from entering it. But last time I cleaned it and lubed it (with oil) it made a dreadful mess when first run, and that's what prompted me to look into this in the first place. So next time, I'm going to try the moly grease. |
| Gordon W | 01/07/2011 09:40:53 |
| 2011 forum posts | I've only had my far east lathe for a couple of years and use hyd. oil for all lube. Last night I could not get a piece to run true in the 3 jaw, so stripped it down for cleaning,the chuck was working fine. Inside, on the scroll, chuck body, and jaws had very small bits of brass (mostly) stuck to the surfaces. Most brushed of with toothbrush, but a lot needed scraping off, with scriber and the end of the 6" rule. Put back together and all is fine. Tip- electric toothbrush is very useful cleaning tool, make sure you have a spare head first. My conclusion is it does not much matter what lube is used, nothing is going to stop the embedding of swarf. Also cleaned the square toolpost, this also had fine embedded brass in it. |
| KWIL | 01/07/2011 10:31:34 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | Out of interest I have just checked the price of PB's chuck lubricant from Rotagrip and Rocol Moly Grease (which is actually rather more inclined to run) from a major supplier and the moly is 2x as expensive!! |
| Steve Garnett | 01/07/2011 11:03:54 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Hmm... 16oz of Rotagrip chuck lubricant (about 450g) is £19.20, and 400g of Rocol Moly Grease is £30.09. But 400g of Molyslip Liquid Grease (and I bet there's no real difference between this and the Rocol) is £4.99. I think I'll try this one first! |
| jomac | 01/07/2011 11:12:02 |
| 113 forum posts | Niel/Stub mandrel. Hi, Sellotape used to be called Durex, which was a brand name for a pommie condom, hence the name change years ago, but being an innocent young fella i dont know nothin about that. John H. |
| Stub Mandrel | 04/07/2011 20:54:06 |
 4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | This thread reminds me of 3in1 Graphited Penetrating and Easing Oil. We always had some when I was a lad and, with a little patience, it shifted things WD40 fainted at the sight of. I haven't seen if for years and Google just comes up with nowt. Does anyone know if you can still get it? Hi Jomac, A brummie comedian called Jasper Carrot (did he ever get Doewn Under) mad a living with a routine that made a lot out of differences between Australian, American and UK English. Readers of my vintage will remember Funky Moped/Magic Roundabout... Sorry if that's off topic... Neil |
| Nicholas Farr | 04/07/2011 21:23:46 |
 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Hi Neil, I don't know why, but for many years now a lot of penetrating oils that I've used in industry, specifically state non-graphited, or contains no graphite. Whether graphite has a detrimental effect or attacks some materials or not I don't know.
Yes I remember Funky Moped/Magic Rounabout. When I used to disco's Magic Roundabout very often got asked for, don't know why, as it wasn't really a disco sound, maybe there was some other message in it.
Regards Nick. |
| Lawrie Alush-Jaggs | 05/07/2011 12:23:52 |
 118 forum posts 32 photos | Hulo Evrybardy (hello Dr. Nick!)
Just a slight digression brought about by a comment under this topic.
"Whilst your confidence in P-B is very touching, I think that it's rather more likely that they'd recommend the stuff that they, or one of their subcontractors, were making the biggest markup on. If somebody made stuff with exactly the same content and marketed it at a fraction of the price, do you really think they'd recommend it? Neither do I"
Why so cynical Steve? Do you reccommend what you think to be the best to your clients or just the things you are going to make the greatest margin out of?
Sometimes the best is the most expensive and I do stand to make more money from the sale of that versus a cheaper item.
But on many many more occasions I recommend something that is suitable for their purposes and on occasion something from another supplier. On the one hand I stand to make less money and the other none at all..
Like just about everyone in the world I am approximately honest. I am approximately self interested but also approximately interested in the needs of my customer.
I have a reputation - a good one. ALL of my clients are by word of mouth, not advertising, something I value very highly.
Burnerd Pratt have a reputation stretching back to the Pyramids. A reputation which is built on making a quality product at a higher price than just about everyone else. If they reccommend a particular product, it is more likely that it is because they have less problems with their own product when used in conjunction with the recommended one than because they stand to make more money from a particular thing.
Lawrie
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All Forum Topics > Beginners questions > Oil or Grease?