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Another 'What Mill' Question

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ChrisH	04/09/2010 21:44:35
1023 forum posts 30 photos	I have read most of what has already been written in numerous threads about about 'what small mill to buy' but am still unclear which mill to buy as a 'first milling machine'. Like others before me I am constrained by a) price, b) space and c) weight. I would dearly like an expensive heavy machine but cannot entertain it at the moment. Whilst I know that several suppliers supply basically the same machines with different name at varying prices, for the sake of simplistically I am comparing two Warco machines to make an initial decision on which way to go. Warco do the Mini Mill/Dill at £475 and the WM14 at £675, more or less. Both machines seem to offer roughly the same in terms of capacity of drill/mill diameters, size of table and travels, both are roughly the same in power of the motor and in weight, if anything the former has a slightly larger size motor and weight, but the former is £200 cheaper than the latter. Both, for me, would fit the bill in terms of cost, size and weight though not necessarily in that order! One has a tilting column the other a tilting head both of which option others have, probably very correctly, advised getting the head lined up correctly then locking it and not touching it again. Sounds sensible to me. So, what is the difference between the two that warrants a £200 price difference and why should I pay the extra? Or putting it another way, if I bought the Mini Mill/Drill why would I be kicking myself for not buying the WM14? Looking forward to hearing others comments on their experiences, I hope! Regards, Chris Edited By ChrisH on 04/09/2010 21:46:40
Steve Garnett	05/09/2010 23:23:50
837 forum posts 27 photos	Since nobody's picked up on this, I'll make a couple of observations, but they are not based on experience with either mill - I have access to a Warco Major Mill, but that's neither here nor there, really. It works fine for what we use it for, but it's not going to set the world on fire, quite frankly. Looking at the specs for both of the mills you mention, I get the impression that the WM14 has probably got a better-built spindle assembly - they go on about that in the data sheet, but they don't mention it specifically for the Mini Mill/Drill. But I would say, from my experiences with milling spindles in general that you always go for the better-spec ones - simply because if nothing else, they will last longer. I realise that in this instance, you can't take the general advice of going for the heavier mill, but the same principle applies to spindles, believe me - take the better one! The other thing that isn't clear is whether the price for the WM14 includes the base - it certainly doesn't for the Mini Mill/Drill, and unless you are going to bench-mount it, you'd have to take that into account. It would certainly justify the greater cost of the WM14 on it's own. Also mentioned is a toolbox and tools, which isn't mentioned for the Mini. Hope that's a little help... Edited By Steve Garnett on 05/09/2010 23:25:37
Axel	06/09/2010 09:30:19
126 forum posts 1 photos	I suspect the Mini version has nylon gears in it?! THey do work, but not as long or as accurate as metal! I´d suggest you check out a Sherline mill also the´re high quality and will do bigger jobs than most think, chek out tryally on you tube, bad english but a good machinist! Also Taig is a well like machine, but I never seen one!
Axel	06/09/2010 09:33:12
126 forum posts 1 photos	With a Sherline you get the benefit of being able to mount the mill vertical slide on the lathe, thus being able to mill long shafts and like.
ChrisH	06/09/2010 10:24:51
1023 forum posts 30 photos	I had thought you were right Steve in that the spindle assembly is probably more robustly built on the WM14 which is a definite plus factor, plus it has a digital RPM readout and some tools (plus toolbox) all of which is probably worth the extra 200 quid but whether I can justify it is another matter! I will take a look at Warco's open day I think, plus ask the question raised by Alel on nylon or metal gears. I don't think the stand comes with the WM14 but as you say, it isn't clear. I was planning a bench mount installation anyway. I have had a quick look at the Sherline but I think they are too small for my needs. What would be very nice is someone with experience of either the mini mill/drill or the WM14, or both, could jot down their experiences of actually using them. I would be most grateful.
JasonB	06/09/2010 12:59:00
25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles	The stand and the swarf tray are both extras http://www.warco.co.uk/productimages/documents/1P55%20warco%20web.pdf Jason
KWIL	06/09/2010 14:29:31
3681 forum posts 70 photos	I may be wrong but Sherline products seem to have alloy slideway components and appear to be VERY lightly built.?
Axel	06/09/2010 14:31:47
126 forum posts 1 photos	they are hard anodized, its hard like emery cloth.
Gray62	06/09/2010 20:39:51
1058 forum posts 16 photos	Beware of the mini mill, whether it be Warco, or other supplier, it is almost guaranteeed that the gear system employs nylon or some other 'plastic' gear train. I have a mini mill clone and stripped the gears within a few weeks. Since then I have converted it to belt drive and CNC for small parts such as clock wheels etc. Which mill you choose depends very much on what you want to machine. I have achieved a great deal of milling operations on my 6" swing lathe with a vertical slide, similar to the Myford type although a 'homebrew' equivalent. I have subsequently purchased a huge Ajax AJT4 which far exceeds my needs but is stable and extremely efficient at everything it does. So, evaluate your requirements and then evaluate what is available, both new and second hand (fleabay). If you are considering a Warco offering, then I would heartily recommend a visit to their open day next weekend. Roger and his team are very helpful and knowledgeable and will give good advice based on your requirements. I have no personal alliegience to Warco but my past experience with them has far exceeded my expectations and I have no hesitation in recommending them as a supplier.
KWIL	06/09/2010 21:00:03
3681 forum posts 70 photos	I think I will stick with cast iron, aluminium even when hard anodised cannot be stiff enough.
John Stevenson	06/09/2010 21:12:56
5068 forum posts 3 photos	The WM series has a small brass helical gear driving a plastic gear for the primary reduction. Just pulled one down tonight to convert this part of the drive to belt drive, partly to get away from the brass plastic combination, partly for quietness and partly because in CNC mode 2250 max revs is not enough. The Mini mill shares the same internals as the C3 lathe and it's possible to buy metal gears as replacements. John S.
Billy Mills	07/09/2010 02:05:28
377 forum posts	Ali filled with rocks can be quite stiff for tiny mills and lathes where the forces are very much lower than standard sized machines. So Taig's and Sherline's do work better than you might think with their extrusions. One of the limits of many small mills is that the speeds are too low for carbide mills and drills where 5,000- 20,000 rpm would be good for 1-3mm cutters. Regards, Alan.
Peter G. Shaw	08/09/2010 11:52:53
1531 forum posts 44 photos	Hi ChrisH, Like you I was constrained by weight, size and money in that order. Which was why I bought the Warco MiniMill. In retrospect, what I forgot, or more likely never thought about, was that these machines can be disassembled into two or more reasonably sized chunks. Which meant that the weight problem wasn't! I could therefore have installed an X3 or equivalent. I used an old Haltrac hoist to lift both the the lathe (125kg fully assembled, but somewhat less with as much as possible removed) and the MiniMill (68kg fully assembled, but easy to solit into two parts both of which can be lifted without aids). So what I am suggesting is that you should, if possible, go for a larger machine rather than a smaller one. Regards, Peter G. Shaw
Clive Cassel	11/09/2010 10:40:59
5 forum posts	Warco mini mill/drill I bought this machine and have been pleased how it can accurately drill. However, I also bought a milling head from Warco and wish to fit it to the machine. I've followed the instructions supplied with the unit but cannot budge the tapered spindle that needs to be removed in order to fit the mill head. I've used a plastic hammer to try and tap the spindle out but to no avail. Can any one advise what I need to do Thanks Clive
John Stevenson	11/09/2010 11:17:59
5068 forum posts 3 photos	If it's been in the taper for a long while it's probably stuck. Tapping is no good, sounds brutish but you need a heavy hammer, 2 lbs upwards and give it one hard smart crack. Can you support the nose from underneath with a piece of hardwood to back it up ? Also protect the bed with a piece of ply. I did a service call a few years ago to a gentleman who had the same problem, did the above and it came straight out. His reply was "I would never have hit it that hard " but the truth is it is needed. John S. [Edit] Morse tapers are self holding and if not lightly oiled when fitted they can over a period of time self weld to together, doesn't happen often but can. I have an old long series drill here, about 3/4" in a 2 to 4 morse socket, It came like that in a job lot. I have now given up with it as regards using either the drill or socket again because it is stuck and I mean stuck. With nothing to loose a few months ago I ground a tapered wedge to fit the slot, placed it on the anvil and hit it with a 14lb sledge - repeatedly. I now have a drill, sleeve and wedge riveted together, I have even tried hitting the outside of the No4 morse sleeve to expand it, I know it's now scrap but it's a point of principle Edited By John Stevenson on 11/09/2010 11:25:29
Stovepipe	11/09/2010 11:37:20
196 forum posts	Warco Mini Mill/Drill - I've got one of these, and the drill chuck replaces a bench drill. I also use it on occasion as a stationary router, so as far as I'm concerned it is a multi-function machine. Don't do that much milling at the moment on it, so I can't really offer any opinion as to its accuracy, which I must leave to others. Dennis
Ian S C	11/09/2010 13:12:51
7468 forum posts 230 photos	John, you can proberbly put your long drill in the lathe and turn the sleeve off unless its too hard, or a slit down each side with the angle grinder with a thin wheel, take it nearly down to the 2 taper, then hit it hard on your anvil and split it, you might at least salvage the drill. Ian S C
John Stevenson	11/09/2010 13:24:11
5068 forum posts 3 photos	Ian, Not really bothered now about both, well the sleeve is well and truly tattered and the drill isn't / wasn't anything to write home about, it's infuriating that it's beating me !! John S.
Steve Garnett	11/09/2010 14:12:55
837 forum posts 27 photos	Last time I succeeded in parting what amounts to a cold weld involving a 2MT adaptor, I only got anywhere at all after heating the outside pretty rapidly before applying the heavy hammer to it. I didn't use a 14lb sledge, but a more controllable 5lb club hammer. What appeared to be most important at the point of impact was ensuring that the adaptor had absolutely nowhere to move; even the smallest amount of movement pretty much ensures that the energy transfer is nowhere near great enough. The other thing that makes a huge difference (if it can be managed) is to pre-load whatever you are trying to part, with something like a hub puller, or whatever, before you hit it. This makes more difference than you might credit!
Peter G. Shaw	11/09/2010 17:03:37
1531 forum posts 44 photos	One of the problems with using a hammer or other shock tool is that the shock must be taken through the bearings etc which is something I do not like. However, in MEW96 page 28 George McLatchie gives information on a screw extractor for these machines which essentially allows one to apply pressure to the (non)removable item whilst retaining the pressure within the shaft itself. There is thus no shock loading on the bearings. It does mean some turning, left hand internal screwcutting, and a slight reduction to a locking nut on the machine, although I made a replacement nut rather than mangle the original. It works, and works extremely well, but I suppose in this instance it may be too far gone. Still, it could be worth a try. Good luck, Peter G. Shaw

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