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Suds vs neat cutting oil
| Chris B | 03/01/2010 12:19:25 |
| 34 forum posts 5 photos | As a follow-on from the thread regarding table covers.
Given the sporadic use that some machines get, is there any advantage in using a low viscosity neat cutting oil in the sump rather than suds and its inherant bacteria issues?
As yet I do not have a pump for the tank on my ME10 Boxford but was thinking of either the RDG or Axminster pump but having an extra return line from the tray of my milling m/c stand and a movable feed so one pump could feed 2 machines.
Chris.. |
| John C | 03/01/2010 12:56:53 |
| 273 forum posts 95 photos | I use a garden pond fountain pump with a soluble oil/water mix at about 1:6 and it works fine - and best of all it was free, having been liberated from a no longer required water feature. It sits on a raising block in a 25 ltr plastic oil container with coiled corrugated washing machine drain hose as the return. The corrugated hose catches most of the returned swarf, and any that returns to the tank sinks to the bottom, below the intake. The is a filter on the pump intake and one on the drain hole on the lathe tray. So far the pump filter has no visible swarf in at. I don't know what the flow rate is as I only use a trickle, but that is enough. There is an 'idle' circuit to a header tank on the feed to prevent the pump straining and a flow regulating tap to control the rate. Mr Heath Robinson would be proud but it does the job and is portable. However, I don't hink it would pump anything with much higher viscosity than the mix. I wipe the lathe bed with slideway oil after use and have had no eveidence of bacterial staining.
John Edited By John Corden on 03/01/2010 12:58:10 |
| mgj | 03/01/2010 13:55:20 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Chris- what I did off an Axminster pump was to feed into a T manifold- grand name for a tee junc into some household tubing. Then I have a delivery fitting at each end- one on a DW mill and one on the Myford. They are all home made so they cost peanuts. On the return it goes into a lenth of 2" steel tube which does duty as a crud and oil trap, before going back to the tank. You have ot desludge that every now and again, but better that then trying to clean out a tank with our total loss lubrication systems! Suds does, I agree have a tendency to separate, and to do the bacteria thing. However, I just open both taps into the chip trays, and set the thing to circulate every now and again when I am not using it a lot, and the agitation solves both problems. I used, like John, a garden fountain job for some years, and it worked very well as he described. It was also fine on the DW mill which needs a decent jet. I've also used a mini fuel pump (thats an SU type pump) that needs 12v DC. It pulses, but a length of tube rigged as an air damper takes care of that. That is OK, but the littlest bit of swarf stops the NRVs working, and it all has to be cleaned out. Moral is I suppose: use a centrifugal pump. |
| KWIL | 03/01/2010 13:59:59 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | I am a nothing or neat oil user. The problem with soluble oils as JC refers to is the chance of bacterial action, not the visible kind but that which happens out of sight under the vice, toolpost stc. It is not always possible to clean down thoroughly after first use, if you have to leave a job part completed, especially in the mill. So its neat oil for me. I use mainly insert tools and they quite like it dry! |
| Gordon W | 03/01/2010 15:47:27 |
| 2011 forum posts | Not very relevent but, I use soluble oil in a squeezy bottle on my old "big" drill. The oil is at least 20 yrs old ,diluted about 1 to 6 with water, it's frozen solid. Which is why I'm sitting here instead of doing something useful. PS .no bacterial action. |
| Peter Gain | 03/01/2010 15:49:45 |
| 103 forum posts | If you use neat cutting oil be prepared for some modification work if your system is a Far Eastern product.
I tried neat cutting oil on my mil/drill. The product worked well but the viscosity was such that the gravity drain could not allow the oil to drain back to the sump fast enough, even with regular clearing. Reducing the flow rate to prevent over flow from the table meant that there was insufficient oil to do the job properly. As I have not yet enlarged the return drain, I have gone back to soluble oil. This also works well but as previous contacts have noted, staining is a possible problem. I conclude that effort must be made to enlarge the drain.
Peter Gain. |
| Steve Garnett | 03/01/2010 17:54:26 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | At work we have an Est Ticino Italian mill which has a suds system built into the base of it - probably the worst option of the lot when you have to clean it out. If you use a soluble diluted oil in it, and don't keep the solution well stirred then yes, you get staining on the table, and more significantly, it rapidly becomes a bio-hazard. I have yet to find a sensible way to clean out the tank; the only access point is a three-inch or thereabouts perforated cover that lifts off over the collecting tank, and everything else involves getting your hand in up to your elbow with a bent spoon, and a long period of cursing. It hasn't hospitalised me yet, but... To clear out the base of the pump, you have to unbolt the damn thing - another PITA. And if the main outfeed tube fails, you have to do major surgery to repair it. Point is, I have wondered for a while about putting a slow stirrer, either running all the time or on a timer, in the collecting tank so that separation doesn't occur. Has anybody ever tried this or have any comments about it? It might well be worth it for this mill, because it doesn't get used all the time, in just the same way that the kit at home doesn't. As it is, if it gets used it has to be cleaned down carefully afterwards - nobody likes what happens otherwise. Edited By Steve Garnett on 03/01/2010 17:55:35 |
| mgj | 03/01/2010 18:39:23 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Might well be worth it - or just open a tap, turn on the pump and just keep the suds circulating. Works for me on a smaller scale. Why, when its time, don't you pump the spent suds out? Jet out the inside with a HP water jet to lift the crud into suspension, pump that out and then refill. Better still, before refilling, modify the tank lid.......and drill tap and weld in a drain - into which next time you can insert the crud agitating hose so the result doesn't have to go through the pump? Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 03/01/2010 18:43:20 |
| Steve Garnett | 03/01/2010 20:24:07 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | If we had a better pump, I might try pumping it out, yes. Modifying the base extensively would probably be frowned upon somewhat by the Management, I fear. There is a drain, but it's under the pump, rather than on the collection tank, which has none. But if I can get it into the right place, having a largish drain on the side of the collection tank does seem like a good idea - I'll have to see what they say about that. At present, it's not possible to get a HP water jet into the base at all to any degree - it's only about 4" deep to the bottom of the tank, which is quite wide, and it won't go very far in at all. But poking it in from the side through a larger opening sounds like a distinct possibility, on the face of it. Fortunately the crud doesn't ever get as high as the lip between the collection tank and the pump's sump, so that bit of it isn't such an issue. |
| wheeltapper | 03/01/2010 22:10:12 |
 424 forum posts 98 photos | Hi
I've seen this tip in loads of places. get yourself an aquarium air pump and an airstone and bung the stone in the tank, it keeps the suds aireated and fresh.
cheers
The bubbly side of Roy  |
| Steve Garnett | 03/01/2010 22:19:58 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | That's a good idea! We even have a couple of aquarium-style pumps around (don't ask, but I promise that no fish will be unable to breath) - I'll give it a go. Edited By Steve Garnett on 03/01/2010 22:20:42 |
| Rob Manley | 03/01/2010 22:40:05 |
 71 forum posts 14 photos | Just my 2p, I've used Garia C neat cutting oil from shell. It doesn't go off, dosen't smell, doesn't stain the machinery and doesn't make everything go rusty if you have not got the mix quite right. The only trouble is, it does tend to smoke on hard working jobs so it always good to have some of the soluble stuff ready to mix when needed. Oh and a brush is all i need to dab it on, apart from the mess and vertical on the lathe and horizontal marks from the mill on the walls and my shirt is also saves alot of wasted oil - of course doing my bit for the environment |
| Pat Bravery | 19/07/2010 22:23:24 |
 96 forum posts 24 photos | Hopefully this is not a daft question, I have made a gravity cutting fluid system for my mini lathe and I thought that I just needed some fluid to dilute with water and hey presto. I have looked at various suppliers and I am totally confused, I last used a lathe about 45 years ago and I seem to remember that the fluid was called Tellus. I would appreciate some guidance on exactly what to get. The gravity tank has a 2 gallon capacity and I can return the fluid to the tank with a pressure system. Thanks in anticipation. Pat |
| John Stevenson | 19/07/2010 22:54:28 |
 5068 forum posts 3 photos | My CVA lathe is on neat oil and it's borderline on the size of the machine. I tried the small TOS, 14 x 40 but it works too hard and the place fills with smoke so that had to go back onto soluble. I use Castrol Cooledge mixed over strong, about 15:1 with about a pint of disinfectant added to 5 gallons, Smells better and stops the health and safety guy I drowned in the coolant tank from smelling too bad. The big horizontal is on oil as it spends most of it's life as a gear hobber, power saw is also on oil, but everything else is on soluble because of them working hard. If I was running a hobby shop I'd use neat oil all the while because I would be able to take my time. John S. |
| Versaboss | 19/07/2010 23:47:40 |
| 512 forum posts 77 photos | At the advice from another happy user I use Rocol Ultracut 370+ soluble oil on my milling machine. No problems with bacteria; when the machine is unused for weeks a slimy skin builds up on the surface, mostly due to the slideways oil which ends in the sump. This can be removed, I don't say easily because of the sliminess; but the suds beneath seem to stay forever. Some slight coloration can appear between table and vise, but I'm not too worried about that. And the best: I use only a feeble dilution of 3% (pls. calculate yourself if you want x : y Greetings, Hansrudolf
|
| KWIL | 20/07/2010 09:12:26 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | That slight colouration between vise and table is the dreaded bacterial action! |
| Richard Parsons | 20/07/2010 15:13:10 |
 645 forum posts 33 photos | I have used Mobil Dortan 25 for years. I apply it with a dropper bottle. It works very well. As I am nearly out of Dortan I am forced to buy expensive spray cans of some local tackle over here in Hungary. We have Mobil agents and MOL agents but it is too much like hard work to add one drum of special oil to their next order –even against a pro-forma invoice. They are lazy little toads! Before that I used Suds which I scrounged from work. I had on old Heinz Bean tin (usual disclaimer) fitted to a post on the cross slide of an old Xyto lathe. It had a screw down valve to control the flow an a length of plastic pipe with some wire inside it to allow me to position the pipe where I wanted |
| Martin Cottrell | 30/08/2010 23:49:19 |
| 297 forum posts 18 photos | Hi all,
As ever, an interesting thread with lots of different solutions (sorry, no pun intended!) to the problem. Can someone throw some light on the bacteria problem that is mentioned in several of the replies? What I am interested to find out is:
a. How does a bacterial attack occur and what are the evident signs of an attack?
b. Does it render the coolant ineffective?
c. Does it pose any health risk to the user?
d. Does it pose any risk to the machinery it is used on?
e. How can you prevent /reduce the risk of a bacterial attack?
Regards, Martin.
|
| John Olsen | 31/08/2010 07:20:30 |
| 1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles | Well, I'm not the guru on this by any means but anyway... a. You get staining in crevasses like under the vice as mentioned above. The stuff will start to smell bad in bulk. b. Probably not, the cooling is mostly due to the water content, and you still probably have enough oil in the solution by the time you realise and change the mixture. c. Not that I have heard of, although I wouldn't go drinking the stuff. d. Mostly the staining, which in my limited experience usually comes off OK. e. Use a weak solution, not a strong one, there is no merit in using more soluble oil than is needed. (More food means more bugs.) Aerate it as suggested above, these are anaerobic bugs. Take the vice/rotary table etc off the machine when you have finished, clean and oil the machine. Hmmm, I am making myself feel guilty. 3% would of course be 33:1, very similar to the 30:1 that my local bottle of stuff recommends. I have a different one to the usual at the moment, it does not mix to a white milky emulsion, just looks like slightly cloudy water. Seems to function OK, and it is used total loss so I am unlikely to find out if it grows bugs well. regards John |
| KWIL | 31/08/2010 08:54:24 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | John, " The staining usually comes off OK". How to you manage that? Abrasive? Chemicals? |
) My 5 L bottle seems to last forever!Please login to post a reply.
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All Forum Topics > Beginners questions > Suds vs neat cutting oil