Open thoughts

I left school with O levels in Art and Maths, amongst others. I thought I'd end up painting computers.

Gary

An Engineer, How we philosophise, and to what end, self elevation, most (Fixers will re-engineer stuff to suit it's total net worth to them and in some cases improve the original) these may have no formal or practical back ground but are prepared to have go, true engineers even if this is only done once.

I've known engineers who could scar you with their back of a fag packet calculation whilst 1 mile underground at coal face be accurate to 0.001 of an inch, who quit frankly couldn't chop sticks for a fire straight never mind hang a door straight or neatly fit it's engineered Iron mongery.

Most engineers i believe love the challange of makeing something from something else, like a bit of metal, wood plastic, glass, paper into a component of a whole item or even the whole thing from scratch, the novice who copies parts that are made by a supa dupa engineering sage and he/ she who embarks on the quest of I'm gunna do that but not in imperial sizes.

There are good engineers, that is all those upto (Archimedes, Brunell etc who were great engineers and pioneers ( once they destroyed a couple of initial ideas)) who get by with a little help from our friends and there are bad engineers who have no or poor support in there attempts to take the challenge.

Baz

I left school with 3 'O' levels - Maths, Physics & Geography. Joined the GPO as a trainee telecom technician and over the next 15 years gained a C&G Full Technological Certificate in Electronics (ha-ha!) and Telephony. At the same time I reached the top of the pay scale as a top level technician. Nothing unusual in that, but after a further 10 years was promoted to 1st line manager and told that as far as BT, as it now was, was concerned, I was now an 'engineer'. True enough, I did have certain responsibilities in planning exchange changes and was allowed to instigate some changes up to a certain financial level without further authority.

I didn't progress any further, and to be perfectly blunt, plenty of my technician colleagues were just as able to do the work as I was, indeed could probably do it better. So was I an 'engineer'? I actually don't think so, preferring the designation 'techician-engineer' because really that's what I was.

As other people have said, I have come across some people, techicians plus 1st and 2nd level managers, whose standard of practical work was best described as 'messy', but on the other hand, there were some brilliant technicians who never got anywhere near a promotion board. Too good to promote perhaps?

As far as model engineering goes, I am just an interested amateur who is interested in learning about, and how to do, and having a go at, the various engineering processes. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not successfully.

So, am I an engineer? I'll leave that to others to decide.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

One engineering company I worked for took the view that they could not afford to lose talented hands-on practical engineers to any departmental promotions because all they wanted was a manager to run the department ,not necessarily a skilled engineer. Colin

Edited By colin hawes on 01/02/2014 17:36:53

I was fortunate as a young lad as my Father trained as an Electrical Draughsman then he went into Mechanical engineering Draughsman, his Father was a well known Model Engineer and by the time I was five I not only new what a lathe was but Grandad had taught my brother and myself how to use one, the only thing we couldnt do was treddle the lathe as we were not big enough, at school we had a fully kitted metal working shop and Tech drawing department which we both enjoyed and did well in especially in CSE and GCSE, when the oppertunity for both of us to take apprenticeships in engineering we jumped at it, I went first as the eldest and a year later my brother joined, the company was Lucas CAV, the Sudbury Suffolk plant where we worked manufactured diesel filters and fuel injectors of all shapes and sizes, we both joined as Technician apprentices and had four years each in the Training Dept and I did five years at Technical College, where I finished with a Full Technical Certificate in Mechanical Engineering, and my brother did four, my fifth year was a course in Business management, the apprenticeship took us through every department in the company and in the third year we had to make a guided decision as to where we would like to work I went into the Works Engineering Dept as an apprentice Machine Tool Fitter and my Brother went into Production Engineering in the next sixteen years I worked my way up the ladder repairing machine tools of all description, I was also sent on electrical and electronic courses which my collegues could not understand, I then put the tools down and took the job of a Reliability Engineer which involed determining how to increase the the life of the machines between overhauls by looking at trends of failure of components etc I then got asked if I'd be interested in becoming a Works Engineering Foreman which I took on until the company announced redundancy on the Dept, I took voluntarily redundancy and joined a Machine Agency and I've been in Service Engineering ever since working with Automation, Industrial Robots mostly in Car Plants, and now I work with Industrial Washing machines, form small dish washer sized machines to machines big enough to put my Vauxhall Vivaro Van inside. I've worked with Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Electrical/Electronic, pumps all types of machine tools and equipment and I think I can call myself a practical Engineer.

Martin P

Peter – you qualify!

My dictionary says:-

ENGINEER – One who designs or makes, or puts to practical use, engines or machinery of any type including electrical.

I had a similar background to yours - though not in telephony but line transmission. I too faced those rigours at tech college with a speciality of Advanced Microwave Principles (which I passed with a distinction ). I can honestly say that I have never used that knowledge and felt, at the time, that I didn’t understand it too well. I have kept my old note books and, any time that I’m feeling a bit smart I look through them, - I don’t understand a bloomin’ word!

Having accepted the firms offer to leave early I was lucky to find a job as a technician in a mechanical workshop doing what has been my lifelong hobby of “making stuff”

I don’t understand the rather derogatory attitude of some here to academic qualifications. Knowledge is always valuable and a good grasp of theory is important - but so too is its application. There is an old adage that states that all that the qualification does is to get you onto the interview – how the knowledge is applied determines the success that you will make of the job.

In my “retirement” job I came into contact with some of the top academics in the world in their field. They would bring me ideas for a bit apparatus they wanted me to make or modify. Some were pretty knowledgeable about the way to go about it but some didn’t have a clue. Why should they? – after all I can eat a steak but I’m not too good at brain surgery! (Those who were brilliant academically AND good practically were a real pleasure to know.)

Regards

Norman

Edited By NJH on 01/02/2014 21:14:13

I fully endorse this, all too often I have seen people get made up because they are next in line and not necessarily the best people for the job.

I actually had 3 years as a manager whist still doing a hands on development design job. Even though I say it myself I was good at the hands on design but absolutely crap at managing.

I ignored paperwork, refused to attend meetings saying I had to work, once fell asleep in a board meeting and fell off the chair, swore at the engineering manager and called him an ass hole to his face in a meeting [ think that was a bad career move and I got made redundant just after that ! ]

Long short is they should have left me where I was and promoted somebody else into the managers job.

Wouldn't have bothered me because i wouldn't have taken any notice anyway. problem is before that job I was self employed for 19 years, once someone has been self employed for about 3 - 4 years they are unemployable.

Didn't help that we were bought out by the yanks and had endless people coming over on all expenses paid holidays to 'organise ' us and give up pep talks. Things like gathering you round and saying what wanted doing then saying "Who's going to own this project " in the best west Texan voice they had and if you didn't jump up shouting you weren't a team player.

This came to a head when one day they said we were having a "team meeting" at a local hotel in two nights time.

I asked if we were getting paid? answer was no it was team building. So I told them sod it build it without me, no one says what I do in my time, refused to go and didn't go. That did not go down well.

Norman,

Thanks for that.

I agree that both academic and practical knowledge are important, but like you I found the academic stuff rather dry and boring. Looking back, I did cover probably all the stuff I used later, but really, the academic only came into use after I had been on an electronic exchange training course, and then followed it up by some self learning from a pair of textbooks which in turn lead to practical experience.

I also freely admit that some of the examinations were only passed because I was, or had been, working on the equipment that the question covered and thus I had the practical knowledge.

John,

There is a phrase for folk like you, something like self-confident or self-assured.

It's interesting that towards the end of my career, I was told my my line manager that BT no longer wanted engineering managers: they wanted "general purpose" managers who could be moved into any department anywhere. Not sure that I agree with that then, but I rather suspect that today that is probably correct.

I've had spells of working on my own, and as part of a team, both as a member and as a leader. Unfortunately, I did gain a reputation of failing to engage brain before opening mouth even though I was always thought of being knowledgable. Not sure if that was strictly correct as a lot of the problems were concerned with people who either didn't know what they were talking about, or were trying to pull a fast one. Interestingly, the people I got on best with were people who did know what I was capable of, and who in turn were very capable technicians themselves.

I do remember going on one w/e team meeting where each person was required to make a presentation after a brain-storming event. I lost track of the brain-storming and then bluntly said something about that's not how I do things. Didn't go down well, got marked as unfit for promotion, but wasn't bothered anyway as to be honest, I was earning so much money, we couldn't spend it fast enough (I was actually easily saving close on 25% of my take-home pay) so couldn't see any need for further promotion. I took early retirement anyway. None of us ever got paid for these w/e jaunts - as salaried employees it was expected of us, although the food and hotel accommodation was always paid for us.

Despite all that, and the inevitable ups and downs though, overall I did have a good and interesting career which has enabled me to have a good retirement and to indulge myself occasionally.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

I left school in 1958, got a job on a newspaper, and eventually became an editor. I never had any formal qualification as a journalist, so the "diploma" I hung on my office wall was the qualification I gained as a pest controller - in other words a rat catcher. The circumstances are far too complicated to list here, but the certificate caused some raised eyebrows, and gave me a few good laughs, too.

I am surprised that so few people on the forum claim to have a degree, may be they're just keeping quiet. It may also be that the forum membership, being towards the more mature, had less chance of going to university in the 50s/60s/70s? Still, at least it is nice to know I'm not the only one on the forum with a Ph.D.

I'm afraid that an anti-intellectual bias is part of the British disease, unlike some other countries where education is seen as a way out of poverty, and to be revered.

There have been a few stories in the thread about new graduates. Here's one about a technician, the archetypal man on the bench. One of the small companies I work for employed a part time technician to do basic bench work and build test rigs so as to free me up for design work. On day one, while putting up racking to hold reels of electrical wire, the technician announced in a loud voice that a Ph.D. couldn't do what he was doing. In one sense, he was correct, if I'd done it the racking wouldn't have been wonky, and it wouldn't have fallen off the wall, as it did at a later date. He also messed up building a test jig, costing a lot more than if I'd done it in the first place. So no more technician.

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 02/02/2014 20:52:40

In the early seventies I was fortunate to go into the sixth form at comprehensive school, at the end of that year we were all brought together and it was announced that out of our year of twenty one of us was going to university and that it was a honour for the school and we were all pleased for the lad, today anybody can go to university and obtain degree's in the most ludicrous of subjects and then think the world owes them a living, with the exception of a few I find it is just another excuse to waste a few more years and not to go out into the real world and earn a living.

Going to university does not have the honour that was attached to it in my youth and its not helped by businesses wanting a broom pusher to have a degree for a job.

Martin P

Hi Andrew, I went to a Secondry Modern in the 60's, there was no encouragement to even consider thinking about going to University let along thinking about the likes of a degree or Ph.D's. If I'd have managed to have gotten to Grammer school, I might have stood a chance, but not really being much of an academic I think I would have struggled at a Grammer school let alone Uni'. I've been able to use tools since as far back as I can remember when I understood what screwdriver and drills etc. could do and used to help my farther in my own little way, beginning with putting rawl plugs into the holes in the wall for him that he drilled using a hand operated breast drill. Practical hands on useage of all manner of hand tools and general workshop machinery has never phased me and in my previous employment I found pulling machines apart, fixing them and putting them back into production really easy.

When any new machines had to be maintain for the first time, there would be a few of the other fitters moaning about not been given any trianing or guidence on how to do them. I just used to say to them "well start taking some of the bolts out and see what you find" never had a problem practising what I preached

Regards Nick.

Maybe because a foundation degree qualification today is somewhat lesser than an ONC earned in the seventies.

In the 1970's an ONC in Aeronautical Engineering comprised of a four year apprenticeship and five years at college, the modern equivalent is completed in three years, and is mostly theoretical engineering.

As stated by others before, its skills that are important, and I think that the sign of a good engineer is such as to the affinity to the materials he/she works with rather than a piece of paper that states how good they performed in the classroom.

I am not qualified to pass an opinion on engineering degrees, but on other subjects I see so many "joke" degrees I am not surprised so few people claim to have one. In life I have found people who can demonstrate they can do a job are far preferable as employees to people who have bits of paper that say they can do it. All too many degrees show nothing more than the fact that the holder has a good memory for the profound thoughts of other people, and that they have never had an original thought in their lives. Or am I being grumpy in my old age?

Hi John

Now I know why I am unemployable.

Several years self employed.

regards David

It took 30odd years for the breadth of my skills and accumulated technical knowledge to be appreciated. My ONC has been consistently dismissed as a poor mans A level, An absolute travesty given the breadth of subjects required. My job now (at 65!) allows me to design and make production fixtures and improve processes. I can fix most things, repair plant, weld , use all machines, process and program new parts, make press tools, fixtures, injection moulds, aero jig building and high precision machining. To name a few accomplishments. I am sure I am not alone in having achieved such skills,and this is not a trumpet blowing blog. My main,albeit rambling, point is the absence of opportunity these days to squire such skills and experience in engineering, shorter more defined training periods, provide a narrow but effective knowledge base. But sadly the days of transferring and gaining skills by having many diverse jobs are surely in the past.

I wonder if it's not perhaps rather deeper than we think. Whilst I agree that perhaps university training as such is more geared to theoretical than practical (not that I've any direct experience of university training), I do think that there has to be an inbuilt bias in a person for practical ability. I suspect some of it can be learnt, but unless there is an inate interest in doing it oneself, then the practical ability will never flourish. I think that even if a person does have practical ability, there is also the wish to improve that ability that goes with it: this why a lot of us are as good as we are - we have an inate ability plus the desire to improve it. When all said and done, what does SMEE stand for? Society of Model and EXPERIMENTAL Engineers, and what is experimental other than the desire to improve by doing and learning? And of course, practical experimentation leads to that other important facet - experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denigrating university although I admit it does sound like it, but as someone has already said, there are too many degrees on Mickey Mouse subjects which are not worth the paper they are written on. We do need research universities as otherwise how would we get to know about, eg quantum mechanics, but do we need media studies? I do think that we need to cut down on Tony Blair's 50% of people at university, and instead direct able students into more practical - read useful - courses at Technical Colleges.

Just for info, I have three children. My daughter left school at 16 and ended up working for HMRC. As I understand it, she has recently qualified to become the equivalent of a 1st line manager. My elder son gained a 2.2 MPhys and is now teaching Physics in a secondary school. He also runs a self-taught website business and has a house for let. Plus he used to play rugby, and still goes skiing. My younger son started off well and went to university to obtain a MPhys. He fell by the wayside and ended up with a 3rd BSc. He is now working on minimum wage in a supermarket with very little ambition as far as I can tell. Here we have three people, one didn't go to university yet has done very well, another did go to university and is using it and doing well whilst the third also went to university but should never have done so.

I'd just like to add a little bit more about some of the things I did at BT. In the '70's I was part of a specialist group investigating poorly performing exchanges. When we weren't doing that, we were designing and building one-off pieces of test equipment both electronic and mechanical, usually as a result of a perceived need by someone else. In the 80's & early 90's I was involved in ensuring there was sufficient capacity in exchanges for the amount of traffic carried and planning exchange transfers from old technology to new technology plus the planning of extensions to existing exchanges. In the early '90's I was involved in initial design for exchange extensions where these were eventually placed with external contractors. Not bad for a lad with three 'O' levels and a C&G Full Tech Certificate.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 04/02/2014 11:42:05

Peter

The difference is this:-

When you and I worked for the GPO / Post Office Telephones / BT Engineering Department EVERYONE ( apart from a very few) started at the bottom and progressed through the ranks. All were given the opportunity to attend college day / evening courses for academic training - success here being required for promotion. I had five years of this. Specialist training, directed at the individual's job needs, was provided by numerous, in house, technical training and management training schools. In my 35 years with the company I attended over 40 such courses. The cost of this training must have been enormous but what they ended up with was experts - but experts in a limited field. What happens today is that firms will no longer bear these costs and expect people to to come to them with qualifications gained, at their own ( huge) expense, from Universities. I guess there is still some training within BT but I'll bet not of the scope or depth that we experienced.

I enjoyed my time there - firstly working, hands on, with the evolving electronics as the changes from valves to semiconductors happened and then in network planning and management of various functions. The best thing of all though was the people that I worked with there. Happy times - I suspect that it's not quite so happy now!

Regards

Norman

Norman,

Yes, you are quite correct about the training - Otley, Harrogate, Stone. And yes, I was stricly an exchange man.

These days though, I do wonder just how much training is needed. No longer do we have Strowger/Crossbar/TXE2/TXE4 all of which required dedicated trained personnel with diagnostic abilities. But what does digital need? Card changers? Diagnosis by computer I suspect, ie "go change this unit". Trained monkeys. Which reminds me of the old joke which came in I think with TXE2. Every exchange needs one man and a dog. The man was there to feed the dog whilst the dog was there to keep the man away from the equipment. Apologies to any TXE2 people reading this.

Seriously though, where is the progression tree now? Ok, there is OpenReach but how far up the ladder can they go, and to where? And how well are they trained? But when the system does eventually become fully digital as a part of the internet, then what? More card changers controlled by a select few highly trained individuals based, if we are lucky, in Ipswich or somewhere? Or more likely in Japan, or China or India. Downskilling it's called.

Which means that ultimately, people with any interest at all in doing things themselves will end up being self-taught, which is what a lot of model engineers seem to be.

There is one thing though, and that is that the very basic principles of telephony have not yet changed, although I think it will eventually. That is, that at the moment, exchanges still need to be able to deal with the 100+year old principles of transmitting information (signalling, data and ringing) between human and exchange. How many people still have dial 'phones - we do, it's one my wife bought a few years ago s/h because "she liked it"! Even FTTC still requires a local loop, so I understand. But eventually? Wireless for all?

I think it's very unfortunate the way the (Western) world is going. In general, old skills are becoming obsolete but the replacing technology is way beyond the reach of most people. I think that the future looks increasingly bleak for a lot of people who will be condemned to eking out a basic level of existence whilst a select few individuals will be extremely highly paid but with huge responsibilities. I don't know what the answer is.

I suspect that it's not quite so happy now!

I know it isn't. My brother, 8 years younger than me couldn't wait to get out but he couldn't get early retirement because it was no longer available unless the retiree lost a lot of their pension. I got early retirement with maximum entitlement because BT was then in the throes of rapid downsizing and wanted rid of people.

Regards,

Peter

Strowger 2-way Switches! Ah.....

Happy days in Hong Kong Central Exchange - pottering around the aisles with my Buttinsky and a burnisher looking for dud switch contacts. Funny how time mellows the memory.

IanT