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This months MEW are 3 CNC features two too many

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Chris Trice	15/05/2011 15:08:17
1376 forum posts 10 photos	I'm moderately interested into getting into CNC but would quite like a step by step guide of what, why, who and where I can follow and emulate, a sort of CNC for dummies. A magazine can never please everyone with every article but having a bit of variety always helps. Rather than a 'new' magazine, wouldn't it have been better to issue all the CNC stuff in a stand alone special if it wasn't intended to spread the articles over a number of issues? Just as note of interest, I've mentioned before I work in the film industry in special effects. There's a magazine called Cinefex that's been around for years that used to look at how special effects were created for films. It used to show miniatures, animatronics, effects rigs, glass paintings, pyro's etc and was considered essentially reading for pros and joe public. Of course in the last fifteen years or so, things have started to be done solely on computer (Computer Generated Imagery - CGI) and as a result, articles in the magazine have become frankly tedious with a succession of photographs of people sitting at computer monitors drolling on about what software they used to replicate something that all been seen before anyway. There is nothing to be said about the process. It's a huge snore and the sales of the magazine have plummeted so much that they now regularly run retrospective articles of how effects were done of films in the 60's and 70's before computers came in. That's not to say that computers are a bad thing. They're not and they will inherit the world, but unless you're into the technology for its own sake, personally, I start glazing over almost instantly and turn the pages quickly to something far more interesting. The magazine is a pastime indulgence bought for pleasure, not an industry journal. It boils down to the type of 'fix' a buyer is expecting when they buy the magazine and if people are disappointed by the content, they won't buy in future. The argument whether they're right or wrong to feel disappointed can be argued about and accusations of having the wrong viewpoints can fly back and forth (there is no right answer) but the buck stops with market forces and magazine sales. A small percentage will lap up the CNC stuff avidly and that's cool but I'm guessing it's mostly being bought by retired gentle folk and enthusiastic metal workers working in a garden shed enviroment when they see it in the very domestic W H Smith's which is why it's being sold in Smith's.
Nicholas Farr	15/05/2011 15:22:49
3988 forum posts 1799 photos	Hi, I kinda agree with every-one's posts. I don't have any CNC machines, and am not likely to, any time soon, that's not because I'm against it, as I can see its value. However, along with the three CNC article there are two Myford articles as well (alright I know one Myford article is also one of the CNC articles) and apart from an old "M" type Myford that I bought off a work mate a while ago because he had a cash flow problem, I don't have much interest in Myford articles either. So you might think I'm a bit hard done by with this issue of MEW. But at least the information is there should I ever have any need of it in the future, and one issue with what may or may not be too many CNC articles is not going to make me consider cancelling my subscription, but like mjg says, if it becomes full of it or even becomes a to frequently thing of more than one article per issue, then yes I most likely would not renew my subscription next time. I can only see one page with any amount of G Code, and as it's an introduction article about CNC milling I guess it can be justified, I have not read it through yet, but may well do in the next week. I think it is only fair that all interests in this field of engineering should be covered, not always full of only the one's we like ourselves. Regards Nick. Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/05/2011 15:28:26
Nicholas Farr	15/05/2011 15:40:33
3988 forum posts 1799 photos	Hi, having now read Chris Trice's post, it reminds me of an electronics mag I used to buy many years ago, and then the PC revolution took off and the mag had about 90% of its contents every month about add on computer boards, and programming codes, it became boring and therefore stopped buying it. Not sure if is even still going now. Regards Nick. Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/05/2011 15:41:26
blowlamp	15/05/2011 15:58:49
1885 forum posts 111 photos	Ian. An excellent post and it's absolutely true that there is seldom a time that you need to be writing or editing the Gcode yourself. I know a few responders to this thread have remarked that CNC machining is about programming the part. If they've come to the conclusion by seeing all the Gcode, that they've got to learn how to write it, then I can see why there is little enthusiasm for the subject. In short, pages of Gcode in the magazine are boring and unnecessary. As for 3D CAD/CAM being expensive, well industrial grade stuff is, but I'm set up and happily churning things out for about £155.00 or $250.00. My software consists of ViaCAD 2D/3D @ $99.99 and CamBam Plus @ $149.00, which enables me to do loads of interesting stuff quite easily, quickly and reliably. And I never edit the Gcode either. After talking to David Clark a while ago, I made a submission to him using these two programs in concert with one another, which culminated in the production of a simple Connecting Rod. In my opinion, it was a nice, non-technical, step-by-step introduction to the matter of CNC, with only a very short mention of the actual Gcode. I still think it has some value and would like it to be published. Martin.
peter walton	15/05/2011 16:36:57
84 forum posts	This thread has to me highlighted the problems of any magazine in that you cannot please all the readers all the time. I happen to have a cnc mill albeit a small one and although as they say into cnc didnt find the articles all that enlightening come to that I do not usually find all that of interest in most of the recent issues but there are usually little snippets of information hidden in the depths of the mag which usually only surface on 2nd or 3rd reread! My biggest problem is that as a relative novice in engineering terms I dondt know what I dont know if you know what I mean. Biggest of which is in the various methodology in the work holding way, some of these problems are not cured by cnc or even covered in books. My latesst snippet of knowledge was in finding about the keats block for holding work on the face plate. My take on this is do the cnc brigade stop getting the mag when there is no cnc related offering as for the last few issues! Just stop gripping and wait for the next thrilling issue! Peter
Steve Garnett	15/05/2011 19:18:37
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Terryd on 15/05/2011 11:40:31: A succinct. if lacking, definition. certainly a true Renaissance Man Has a wide and often expert depth of knowledge over a large and diverse number of Fields and Disciplines from the Sciences to the Humanities and arts as well as concomitant skills. However the term is derived from the beliefs and tenets of the Renaissance Humanists who included social skills such as Courtesy, Kindness, Understanding, Acceptance and Enlightenment among the essential skills of the 'Renaissance Man'. It was also understood that he would always behave in a 'gentlemanly' rather than boorish manner. Well that may have been true of the origins of the term, in common usage today the attributes of the Humanists are simply regarded as being an example of good manners, which we might hope would have spread slightly further than just Renaissance Man... and as such, they are not necessarily regarded as an absolute necessity, although still desirable. How does antagonising someone stimulate them to overcome what you perceive as their complacency or into changing their attitudes? It merely tends to stimulate an antagonistic response. I also find your approach to the psychology of learning quite interesting, unusual but interesting, and different to my own (developed over 30 odd years of successful practice) and that of my lecturers at University. Well, in terms of your single definition of antagonise certainly doesn't make it look that good. But when you consider the other definition (often given first), which is 'to act in opposition to', or counteract, if you like, perhaps this makes a little more sense? My approach to the psychology of learning is based on having graduate and post-grad qualifications revolving entirely around it - and experience of using it going back over several decades, too. And I didn't exactly fail either.... Regards, Steve Edited By Steve Garnett on 15/05/2011 21:12:19
Terryd	15/05/2011 22:51:24
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by Steve Garnett on 15/05/2011 19:18:37: Posted by Terryd on 15/05/2011 11:40:31: A succinct. if lacking, definition. certainly a true Renaissance Man Has a wide and often expert depth of knowledge over a large and diverse number of Fields and Disciplines from the Sciences to the Humanities and arts as well as concomitant skills. However the term is derived from the beliefs and tenets of the Renaissance Humanists who included social skills such as Courtesy, Kindness, Understanding, Acceptance and Enlightenment among the essential skills of the 'Renaissance Man'. It was also understood that he would always behave in a 'gentlemanly' rather than boorish manner. Well that may have been true of the origins of the term, in common usage today the attributes of the Humanists are simply regarded as being an example of good manners, which we might hope would have spread slightly further than just Renaissance Man... and as such, they are not necessarily regarded as an absolute necessity, although still desirable. Exactly my point, where are the good manners in your example Well, in terms of your single definition of antagonise certainly doesn't make it look that good. But when you consider the other definition (often given first), which is 'to act in opposition to', or counteract, if you like, perhaps this makes a little more sense? As you seem so keen on ancient Greek Philosophy I would have anticipated that you would have been keen on accurate philology. especially Greek: "Greek `antagnizesthai`, to struggle against : `anti-`, anti- + `agnizesthai`, to struggle (from `agn`, contest; see agony).] " Not my definition, no dichotomy here then, the term always implies conflict. My approach to the psychology of learning is based on having graduate and post-grad qualifications revolving entirely around it - and experience of using it going back over several decades, too. And I didn't exactly fail either.... Regards, Steve I also have both Graduate and Post graduate (including two Masters and one to Doctorate level, but I don't quote those) qualifications in Educational Psychology from one of the best Universities in the UK. Education never Damages the brain, merely exercises it and develops the capacity. I've must admit to never having encountered your philosophies (except in Dickens) despite many years of study and research. I must admit Steve, in the best possible way you remind me of Humpty Dumpty (Lewis Carroll) in your unconventional use of language and words, Quote:- 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' I particularly like the 'scornful' bit, Best regards Terry Edited By Terryd on 15/05/2011 23:21:11
Chris Trice	16/05/2011 00:12:31
1376 forum posts 10 photos	Posted by Nicholas Farr on 15/05/2011 15:40:33: Hi, having now read Chris Trice's post, it reminds me of an electronics mag I used to buy many years ago, and then the PC revolution took off and the mag had about 90% of its contents every month about add on computer boards, and programming codes, it became boring and therefore stopped buying it. Not sure if is even still going now. Regards Nick. Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/05/2011 15:41:26 A lot of the photography magazines have gone the same way. With the almost overnight revolution from film to digital cameras, product reviews can virtually be reprinted each week and just change the brand name in the title. Things that previously took skill to achieve with film can be produced by anyone very quickly on the PC. The unskilled will argue this is a good thing and it probably is but the problem is that when something becomes easy, it loses its value.
NJH	16/05/2011 00:13:56
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Steve & Terry OK OK OK I love CNC, I promise that I will read all the articles and enjoy them and never whisper another word about it again if only you will put a sock in it. I really can't cope with all the wisdom generated by these exalted qualifications. Norman Edited By NJH on 16/05/2011 00:15:41
Steve Garnett	16/05/2011 00:14:04
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Terryd on 15/05/2011 22:51:24: Exactly my point, where are the good manners in your example Like I said, not an absolute necessity... and anyway, I wasn't claiming to be Renaissance Man, was I? And if I was being that rude, I think that several other people would have complained by now - and they haven't. Not my definition, no dichotomy here then, the term always implies conflict. I particularly like the 'scornful' bit Well duh, of course it implies conflict. And I'd certainly noticed that you like the scornful bit... And my use of the language looks to be a lot more precise than yours, quite frankly. But regardless of that, you appear to show a remarkable lack of imagination in the use of words, one way or another; you don't seem to appreciate the value of alternative and perhaps challenging explanations of things at all, really. But... Education never Damages the brain, merely exercises it and develops the capacity. I've must admit to never having encountered your philosophies (except in Dickens) despite many years of study and research. That's rather patronising, and quite frankly, I'm unimpressed. There is a wide body of (admittedly mostly American) research into the notion that, joking with the terminology aside, Education most certainly can cause brain damage - that's what the Calandra barometer link was about. It's also why Montessori schools operate the way they do, in an attempt to counteract this - one of the key words in the way they describe their working ethos is 'challenging'. Do I really need to explain how this works in terms of damage? Very best regards, Steve
Chris Trice	16/05/2011 01:09:32
1376 forum posts 10 photos	My mother was a teacher for over forty years, (head of the maths department at an exclusive girls school). People skills and the ability not to turn the pupils interest in what you were saying off is very important. Teaching is more than just regurgitating facts. Wasn't the point of university to encourage original thought and re-examine those things we take for granted along with taking on board what we think we already know? Questioning the accepted nearly always leads to a pupil coming to the same conclusions or it highlights that maybe there is further research on a subject to be considered. A closed mind is a stagnant one. Imagination for other possibilities and thinking outside the box is what separates us from machines and it's how human knowledge evolves. Edited By Chris Trice on 16/05/2011 01:11:37 Edited By Chris Trice on 16/05/2011 01:12:52
Lawrie Alush-Jaggs	16/05/2011 05:27:15
118 forum posts 32 photos	Hullo Evry Bardy! (Hello Dr. Nick) I don't envy David Clarke in his job. It is difficult to balance all of the various interests. Personally I find the CNC articles boring but I read them anyway. The CNC articles are generic and applicable to just about anyone's machinery where the six hundred part series on making a set of collets for dear old Orac was not or maybe it was, I don't know. But it was boring even though I read it from start to finish. I have meandered through nine different trades and know that the most difficult part of starting in any of them is learning the language. Because of this I am gratefull for the articles because exposure to the concepts and language gives me a headstart when I do eventually get to CNC. And I know that at some point I am going to get there. I ran a small turret lathe for a while many years ago and although I like them, they really are old technology. I know that some will chide me for that view and that they can set them up in next to no time and that the entire war effort for Two World Wars was produced on them but that was then and this is now. In the Reader Survey, David asks the question of whether a dedicated CNC magazine is a good idea. As I am not ready to head in that direction just yet, I woudn't purchase it. So even though home dentistry is far more exciting, I think it is good to have some CNC articles. Lawrie
modeng2000	16/05/2011 07:04:54
340 forum posts 1 photos	It is interesting that I haven't noticed any comment by the editorial staff. John
Keith	16/05/2011 07:59:31
25 forum posts	I also don't envy David his job. However, what does he do if he doesn't get the articles to publish, or he does but the quality is not there. I can understand why David hasn't commented. i must admit I also spent more time reading the free addission then the magazine. However, I still go to smiths and buy both mags even if the content is to my liking or not - I may use it in the future. One possibility is a CNC Special. Keith
John Stevenson	16/05/2011 09:04:05
5068 forum posts 3 photos	Posted by modeng2000 on 16/05/2011 07:04:54: It is interesting that I haven't noticed any comment by the editorial staff. John Perhaps because they are still at Harrogate or on their ways back.? Also the mags take preference over other things in respect of deadlines and it's far more important than to nit pick posts about semantics when we have such exulted contributors on this forum to carry this torch. I also have just come back from the show after meeting many people where were were demonstrating some CNC machines and it raised quite a few points I things not covered in this thread [ just skimmed it] I'll have to post later as i have a shed laod of work to catch up with. John S.
Diane Carney	16/05/2011 10:53:19
419 forum posts 11 photos	An interesting thread and thanks to all contributors. I would tend to agree that three articles on CNC in one MEW is a bit much but it is not typical. Sometimes, that's the way things pan out. As a general commet, my view is that until such time as a sister magazine might come to fruition, there is a place for some CNC in MEW. We can none of us sit, Canute-like, telling CNC to go away. It will be embraced by those who choose to embrace it and ignored by those for whom it holds no attraction whatsoever. The Editor does try to cater for all readers who like to produce things in a workshop, whatever method they use. A lot of readers will surely gain some pleasure from combining state of the art CNC techniques with hand filing an other long held skills. Bear in mind, also, that very few 17 year olds leaving school today would understand why you would want to use 'old fashioned' methods when CNC is now available. Possibly not those who have spent time with their parents and grand parents in the home workshop, but those for whom shcool or college has been the only source of education in engineering are bound to think this way. And are we not trying to bring this generation into the model engineering hobby? What I'm saying is that there is, presently, a place for both. Please be assured that three articles in one magazine does not signify a shift - or even a drift - towards MEW becoming a CNC-dominated magazine. As a previous writed has said, of you have an idea for a non CNC article please put pen to paper! Regards Diane
Martin W	16/05/2011 11:57:11
940 forum posts 30 photos	Hi Diane I think your comments are to the point and sum up the situation comprehensively. I personally am not particularly interested in CNC as I like to produce things by hand and I can't justify the cost of a CNC machine against the use I would have for such a machine. I take pride making items reasonably accurately that have a good finish and I am still learning how to achieve this. To me this journey is the part of engineering I enjoy and the end product is the bonus; other than making bits and bobs for my machines and small projects for others I don't have have a major project on the cards yet hence the limited use I would give any additions to my workshop. I like looking at the pictures on the cave wall but I know what causes them and I can walk out into the sun anytime I like. Best regards Martin W
Versaboss	16/05/2011 12:14:30
512 forum posts 77 photos	Aah, a voice from the carpet floor finally !!! As the relevant issue has not yet landed in the letterbox in this part of the world, I cannot comment much. However, I am of the firm opinion that pages of printed G-code in a magazine is nonsense. Even if there are no errors in it (and the re-typing does not generate new ones), it is not too sure if the code would run correctly on every machine. And there are errors for sure, if we remember the problems with drawings It would be much better - if it is really needed - to put the G-code files somewhere to download. The place could then be used to bring good examples of successful conversions, or how to make Delrin Acme nuts without backlash, or how to work with CamBam, or similar stuff!!! THAT would interest many, I think. H Greetings, Hansrudolf
Tony Jeffree	16/05/2011 16:46:26
569 forum posts 20 photos	Posted by macmarch on 13/05/2011 18:11:53: Model Engineering Workshop Does this not mean equipment etc to produce Models and small scale? Seems as though we now have to become programmers to produce items we can make in half the time using our skills. CNC is alright if making dozens or hundreds. I make small parts in 20's and 30's just as quick or quicker manually than CNC. If the magazine continues in this vein then here's one that will not be renewing. What rubbish. CNC is great for doing dozens or hundreds, that is true; however, it is also great for doing 1-offs where the complexity of the shape makes it a pain in the a$$ to machine it by hand. For example, the one clock I have made so far has skelton plates; cutting the plates, crossing out and machining the wheels, and cutting the hands was all done on my CNC Taig mill. All the parts were 1-offs with the exception of the plates, which were a matching pair. The CNC-milled finish was also a great deal easier to finish to a high standard than it would have been if they had been cut out using hand methods. I think clockmaking was part of model engineering last time I looked, and as observed above, CNC machining has a place in that activity. Regards, Tony
Tony Jeffree	16/05/2011 17:02:11
569 forum posts 20 photos	Posted by blowlamp on 13/05/2011 23:49:15: Incoming flak! I'm sure the first blokes that used a lathe of some sort got slated by their peers for missing out on the pleasure of bringing their work to the round by applying a hand-made abrasive device to its surface, whilst supporting it in the crook of a branch of an English Oak. And what about the lazy git that first jumped on a horse to get somewhere instead of doing the decent thing of walking? You see, I see CNC as just another tool in the arsenal. You don't have to use it for everything, but if a part needs an elliptical profile on it and you've only got a lathe and vertical milling machine, then how are you going to do it without making yet another 'never to be used again' attachment device? Martin - Well put - it is indeed just another tool in the arsenal. I guess it is each to their own - some get their kicks out of the hands-on approach and the feeling of having minutely filed and scraped every last square (or round) inch of the work, others get their kicks from the design process, and want to see that converted into an end result in the shortest possible time. I tend towards the latter (and increasingly, I also get my kicks out of building the machines that will allow me to convert design to finished article ASAP). However, an observation for the old f.., er.. that should read Luddites, amongst us - cortesy of good old 'elf & safety and the general move to avoid anything that might, perish the thought, cause any damage to the precious & fragile bodies of the yoof of today, the generation currently going through school gets precious little opportunity to do anything "hands-on" these days, and CNC mills, routers, laser cutting tables, and the like are springing up to replace the traditional manual machinery. If MEW doesn't keep up with that end of the hobby, then it will go from being a useful albeit minority interest mag to being utterly irrelevant. Over the Luddites' dead bodies, (literally), of course. Regards, Tony

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