How on earth do they calculate electricity and gas bills...

Supply exactly matches demand + system losses. Any deviation and the frequency rises or falls, fall towards the proscribed limits and there will be an increase in generation (almost all generation is operated with some headroom) fall further and additional fast acting generation (hydro/open cycle gas turbines/interconnectors) will increase output, fall further and there will be a reduction of voltage (UK end user supply is technically 230v +10% -6% with a nominal 240v) the wide area voltage reductions being in one or two stages, then at a point at which generator/grid stability approaches there will be load shedding, in the first instance to large industrial customers with a prearranged disconnection agreement, then in an extreme situations wider areas.

Whole area disconnections happen so rarely it involves thousands of man hours on investigations

BBC - Power returns following blackouts

OFGEM - System Events of 27th May 2008

There is a formal report on this incident, I'm not sure if it was ever placed in the public domain.

That's a good summary of why UK supply has been so reliable in the past. But it's no guarantee that the same can be maintained in the future. The world changes. This graph from 2013 illustrates why there's cause for concern:

The graph shows the UK capacity margin narrowing mainly because of scheduled plant closures, much of it already time extended. It needs to be replaced and it's not obvious what the answer is. The future of energy supply is more complex than it was in the past for political, economic and technical reasons.

It means we are in a period of difficult investment decisions for Coal, Gas and Nuclear plant. Dirty coal and nuclear are both unpopular: who isn't a NIMBY at heart? None of them are cheap or quick to build. In consequence there is a distinct risk of a shortfall.

At the same time, the world is exploiting sustainable energy sources far more. They are cheap, clean and unreliable. Unfortunately that unreliability makes them unsuitable as a way of satisfying unexpected peaks in demand.

Bottom line, a very cold windless winter between now and, say, 2025 could easily take UK demand for electricity beyond normal control measures.

And after 2025 there is still much uncertainty ahead. Coal could be dirt cheap because no one wants it, or - more likely - it will be much more expensive because there's a shortage. Who knows?

I think Smart Meters are being introduced as part of an overall energy strategy aimed at de-risking an uncertain future. We are being encouraged to save energy whilst allowing more sophisticated demand management in the event that the system can't cope. My plan is that you should all have one, while I don't! That way I can play with my lathe while everyone else enjoys a candle-lit supper.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 23/12/2017 17:02:26

Candle lit suppers were only necessary with a new young bride.

A Wife remarked "When We were first married You used to give Me the biggest portion of Your food.

Now You eat it all and don't share. Why are You so selfish now?

You have learned to cook now!

Wife: Whatever happened to that beautiful thing we shared together when first married?

Husband: You spent it.

Direct debits, if you are not satisfied with the way your supplier handles DD's, change supplier.

My supplier agrees a direct debit from the start of the contract based on the size of the property and average use in said property. They monitor usage over a period of months and IF NEEDED raise or lower the DD, but only if you agree. All this is shown on a graph so you can see why the change. You also have the option of paying more if you want to.

The last change to my DD went from £74 to £79, but I set it at £80.

If I am in credit I get paid interest of 3%.

If your supplier is not as accommodating, then change.

It is time to take control!

Do you mean that they really calculate these bills ? I thought they just took a number out of the air and doubled it.

When I moved into my new propert, I contacted the water supply authority to tell them I moved in as the new customer. I then received a bill for the quarterly period which came to £ 31-ish....I asked to set up a dd, he suggested to set the monthly charge at £30.... I aked why so high, his response was ' well thats an average figure for a house of that size' I explained that we were not Mr and Mrs average with kids.....eventually we settled on £15 a month....

Bottom line, if they start hiking up the dd without justification, I'll go back to paying on a quarterly basis....their loss.

Most suppliers give a discount if you use DD and paperless bills. So far I have been changing almost every year to get the best price but that option must run out eventually.

I have solar panels on the roof which help in reducing costs . The introduction of battery packs should be a real advance but will not apply to existing systems which qualify for the feed in tariff. I would think that for new installations without the feed -in incentive more panels could be fitted and with a reasonable battery pack, the average home would be self sufficient although mains would still be required as a backup.

I have been looking at fitting a stand alone solar panel system of about 400W for the shed. Looking at what is available, using car batteries,this should give enough power, about 1500W to run most if the machines and perhaps a small greenhouse heater to keep the shed dry. At an investment cost of about £500 it could well pay for itself but at this time of the year it is mostly cloudy,misty weather the panel output is very low so I think that idea goes on the back burner until the sun comes out.

We also got an additional discount for sending them meter readings by email.

Ray,

Do not even try to use car batteries. It is doomed to failure - automotive batteries are not designed for deep discharge and would fail within a few months unless depth of discharge were limited to about 10% and they were returned to full charge soon after.. Traction batteries are made for this purpose.

Thanks for the tip. I assume that the description Traction applies to golf cart or mobility scooter batteries. I'll bear that in mind if I ever get around to installing.

Traction applies to golf cart or mobility scooter batteries.

No. You need a quality of ‘fork truck’ batteries at least. Look up about number of deep discharges per battery type.

Leisure batteries used for motorhome/caravan/canal boat use are designed for low discharge over long period and are not that expensive. Maintenance free as well so no topping up or risk of spillage. Colin

Just gotta love your post Vic,my sentiments entirely, Ive been ''carefull/frugal"all my life, I was brought up that way!!

Lithium Batteries are worth a look. Too expensive today unless you're a Lottery Winner, but expect prices to drop in future.

Dave

You are not looking at the right market. The P100D Tesla battery doesn’t cost £100,000. They use different chemistry for different applications. Not sure what a 7kWh Tesla powerwall costs at present, but remember that includes all the charging, discharging - and interaction with the grid - connections, too.

.

See my link 28-Aug-2017 on this previous thread: **LINK**

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=128488&p=9

MichaelG.

That's exactly how I do business Vic. Unfortunately my daughter (despite endless nagging) is guilty of the following sins:

• Boils 2 litres of water to make a mug of tea
• Never turns lights or electric heaters off
• Goes out leaving TV, Sound system(s), computers, game consoles, electric blanket etc. switched on
• Uses several kilowatts per day drying and curling her hair...

There's a faint possibility modern youth might take notice of a Smart Meter rather than a greybeard rabbiting on.

Daughter's behaviour isn't inherited. Whilst I'm a mere Scrooge-level meanie, my mum is an ultra-saver; she turns everything off and unplugs it before going to bed. It causes a certain amount of pensioner bafflement, for example her kitchen TV does a full "I'm brand-new channel search" on power up if it's not been used for a few days. Saves money though!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 26/12/2017 10:54:27

Daughter's behaviour isn't inherited. Whilst I'm a mere Scrooge-level meanie, my mum is an ultra-saver;

It’s likely your mum had to - war years instilled a saving culture - and it was passed on, to you, in your younger years. Daughter has grown up in a less ‘make do and mend’ era.

Until they are really hard up for spare cash, there is little to change their ways, and modern goods don’t easily lend themselves towards repair, do they! So a ‘throw away’ generation has resulted. It is surprising how going hungry can concentrate the mind.

Edited By not done it yet on 26/12/2017 11:44:41