elf and safety gone mad

This started in the days of analogue phones when a few people discovered that if you held your phone near a petrol pump it would under register. It was a fault with the pumps not the phones.

The petrol companies introduced the ban on phones on forecourts under the pretence that it was for safety because of a risk of sparks being generated. The myth never went away.

Russell.

Phil,

Love your rants

Pity our politicians/councils are too effing stupid to understand or even realise what damage they have, and continue to do to this once great country.

HSE/Govt have a lot to answer for.

I am astonished that this country puts up with the utter nonsensical pettiness of most of it.

Having lived in France, I know what the reaction would be over there to what is foisted on us - the Guillotine.

The biggest difference between us is that the French government is beholden to the people and knows it, whereas the opposite is mostly true over here.

Geoff - Been wanting to get that off of my chest for years, and this thread has given me the opportunity.

The New World Colonists were so hacked off with our rubbish democracy that they wrote a constitution to keep any future government busybodies at bay within their own society

Took WW1 to give everyone the vote in Britain... and WW2 to give us the NHS etc

One man one vote isn't even 100 years old in Britain yet

But the pumps where there before the pumps. Think they saying if dropped could cause spark but even not being used it could fall out of one's pocket so that does not work.

> The New World Colonists were so hacked off with our rubbish democracy that they wrote a constitution to keep any future government busybodies at bay within their own society

Actually, our Govenment wrote their constitutions for them.

Neil

Actually, our Government wrote their constitutions for them.

Be sure to let all our American friends know that historical snippet, they'll be really chuffed

Edited By Ady1 on 11/01/2015 13:23:04

contrary to popular belief and what certain newspapers suggest, virtually all HSE rlues regulations and legislation has evolved 'reactively' as opposed to 'proactively'. a spate of accidents happen and so new regulations are brought into effect to try and prevent similar occurances.

the health and safety at work act has its roots in much earlier legislation. the 1974 Act has had a marked effect on workplace injuries. fatalaties have reduced by 87% between 1974 and 2014, and non fatal injuries by 77% between 1974 and 2012.

i dont think anyone would climb up a ladder these days without the angle being right and someone at the bottom. people regularly used to fall off ladders as the old law reports will show with death or serious injury resulting. that isnt health and safety gone mad, it's ensuring people at work dont get injured or killed.

you only have to watch 'You've been Framed' on the TV to see the stupid things people do at home.

cheers,

julian

The HSE use the blunt weapon of inflicting their rules on people who know what they are doing, not just the idiots who don't. A proper apprenticeship should produce a competant responsible person. Unfortunately there are many people with no training at all able to call themselves anything they want and do a shoddy job. The HSE answer is to hit everybody with another layer of regulations not hit the cowboys. I accept that there are idiots who hold indentures but I think this should be addressed during their training making it more rigorous and protecting the function they train for from cowboys.

Mike

Ady1,

The US Constitution is actually based on the Magna Carter, something which they really took to heart when drawing up their own solid interpretation.

Neil,

Pity they haven't done the same for us!

There's a new series on BBC R4 starting at 0900h this Tuesday about our 'democracy', which should be interesting, and available via iPlayer for listening later on.

Tony,

Was expecting such a question, but 'life' got in the way.

That was our standard question we asked anyone who came to SA and then started criticising the country.

Well, that criticism has turned out to be valid, and something we where either too blind or brain washed to realise.

I just made a statement of fact about the difference between France and Britain.

I was on a training course with Merlin Gerin in Grenoble in the '70s, and HAD to return home to run their SA office, or be out of work. Simple.

I have, however, absolutely no intention of getting into a mindless debate about this, as things are what they are.

Everyone of us would change things in our past if we could, of this I have no doubt.

Right now I'm enjoying being back at the centre of the model engineering fraternity.

It's the mindless politicians and burocrats that get up my nose, big time! Would love to give them all where those meaningless platitudes eminate from.

Geoff - How many have had their lives changed through circumstance not of their own making?

Edit: Response to Ady1

Edited By OuBallie on 11/01/2015 14:09:25

But in 1974, nearly everyone went to work in a steel mill, colliery, car factory, motorbike factory, brass foundry, stamping plant, machine shop etcetera, -- an environment where any mistake could easily be fatal or tear off a limb etc.

In 2012, the few who actually go to work, go to an office or a shop or other "service industry" environments where worst that can happen is a paper cut.

We had a visit from a young lady, who started taking us to task about a test stand, she wanted railings around it and a better access ladder, she then started on about our Ultra Sonic tanks and started quoting things from the Montreal Protocol and the use of Freon, etc. I told her we were using Aqueus solutions and she knew nothing about them and asked what they were so i told her to research it like I had to years back. We use MICRO at a 2% solution. She said she was coming back in 21 days but we never saw her again!

Clive

Clive

Don't know your young lady but have met her brother or boyfriend having remove our Methylene Chloride degreaser and replaced it with a energy hungry Aqueous wash plant I had two visit from people checking we were complying with the Montreal Protocol ! As a metal finishing company offering both Cyanide zinc finish and hard chrome we were targeted on a regular basis when the H&S knew given the nature of our work we would be working within and up to date with the regulations, and as I often reminded the inspector that whilst he was wasting his time checking on us the 'back street platers' and there were quite a few in the midlands were not complying and still disposing of effluent down the drain !!!

The most dangerous industry has been and still is farming, and from long before 1974.

Ady, I had brain fade - I was thinking of the various Commonwealth countries who escaped during the 20th Century.

Clive, you have to watch that aqueous stuff - have you seen the drowning statistics?

Harry, I discovered the non-joys of methylene chloride free paint stripper today.

Neil

Facts are one thing but being relative or in proportion is another. So from 74 to around 85 there wouldn't have been that great a fall. From 85 onwards there would be because of the downturn of manufacturing and new practices introduced on replacement tools/machinery! Top that off with ever decreasing manufacturing being done outside the country, it lowers the report count and shifts it abroad.

Just H&S manipulating data for their own good rubbing off on outsiders who have no understanding. Tried getting insurance theyre all over you begging for business. Soon as mention rotating machinery you are greeted with an instant refusal with no common sense or understanding what category it falls in to.

Ian L2

They come up with those percentages because of lies; damned lies & B******g STATISTICS ! Course half those elfinsafety numpties couldn`t tell if their a***s were punched, bored, drilled or reamed!!

Rant over

I too have sometimes encountered bureaucratic omnipotent butt heads who lacked to the Nth degree any sort of people skills. Logic and reason were often beyond them. I once had a federal inspector enter one of my areas of responsibility and using only his nose, was able to deduce that the level of residual chlorine gas in the air was above the TLV (Threshold Limit Value for 8 Hr exposure) and STEL (Short Term Exposure Limit). When he was told that there was a chlorine detector on the wall next to his head that had been inspected and calibrated to the STEL 2 days before, he still proclaimed that his nose was right because he used to work in a pulp mill.

I have conducted hundreds of safety audits and inspections. I have also written dozens of directives and Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs). In doing so, I always made it a point to spend most of my time talking to the chaps at the coal face; those who used the machine or did the work. Rule number one was always use the eyes and ears first, followed next by the brain. The mouth was then used for asking questions to confirm and understand my observations. My late father often said: "Don't let your mouth make a fool of your brain. Play stupid until you are sure you know what's going on". Sure, I often encountered men who attempted to feed me a load of blarney, but asking the right questions and drawing on their knowledge and experience would soon set them at ease and they would most often become quite cooperative. I was an expert on regulations and policies but I made sure that the workers understood that I considered them to be experts in their trade and that it was their responsibility to find the best way practicable to merge safety legislation and policy with the hazards associated with the work at hand. Always at the forefront was the fact that the work must be done as timely, efficiently and safely as possible.

What does this all mean to a home hobbyist? Knowledge of the hazards and awareness of the best means of eliminating or minimizing those hazards will serve you well in your hobby and add to the satisfaction and enjoyment that you get from your work. Do not use any product or tool in your shop until you read and understand the label or instructions. Read, read, read and if you are not sure, ask questions of knowledgeable people. Always strive to understand and better your own knowledge. What you do is up to you. You are the owner, manager, foreman, worker and safety guy all rolled up into one. Happy Chip'n.

Bill

the statistics i quoted came direct from the HSE website and are RIDDOR figures!

i dealt with some horrific accidents at work before i retired as a solicitor specialising in personal injury claims.

as far as im concerned (and having had close personal dealings with the HSE inspectors over many years) anything that prevents workplace accidents is to be recommended and strongly supported and i dont have any sympathy with the 'luddite' mentality expressed on here in respect of such matters.

cheers,

julian

There is a "perfect storm" in this current day and age. It happened when two worlds, one being elf and safety and the second being green politics collided into an unworkable mass of nonsense and waffle. Anyone going into a worksite or facility to work will know what i mean, having to read through a safety statement, or sit through a presentation is something i dread and is beyond tedious.

The removal of any chemical or product that could possibly harm anything or anyone is the latest load of rubbish, as someone said paint stripper that simply doesn't work because it might harm you or not selling you paint because the fumes might hurt the lesser spotted newt is something that drives me up the wall.

P.S. if you buy a litre of dcm on ebay , you can mix it back through the paint stripper and it will work perfectly then. Dcm was the ingredient our glorious masters in the eu banned from public usage 2 years ago.