Member postings for julian atkins

I don’t think that Steve’s slide valves are lifting otherwise the loco would not run on air or as he has said on low pressure steam.

I would myself hesitate to suggest checking for leaks on joints on superheaters or the wet or hot header whilst the loco is in steam. It seems to me to be a dangerous option. Far better and safer and the results more definitive using a hydraulic test.

Hello Steve,

As your Rob Roy runs ok on air at 15 psi, I would look elsewhere. These things are always difficult to diagnose.

I don't think it would be the draughting per se ie blast nozzle to petticoat pipe. The Rob Roy draughting can be tweaked. What you describe suggests something more problematic.

It could be firing technique or fuel problems.

However, I would suggest you have a look at the wet header and hot header and superheaters for leaks. Also the blower internal pipe where it connects with the smokebox tubeplate. The regulator pipe similarly. Blank off the steam pipes to the steam chests and do a hydraulic test of the steam circuit from boiler to the end of the steam pipes including the headers and superheaters.

My hunch is that you have a faulty joint somewhere such as the notoriously difficult superheater return bends that would fit your description of the sudden loss of pressure when the regulator is opened under steam.

Cheers,

Julian

I have another week’s holiday off next week, so hope to be able to do a bit more research in the archives.

I suppose we and the families of those who died ought to take solace from the fact that those on Titan died instantly.

I don’t believe that there was any forewarning or that any prior attempt was made to resurface or ditch ballast.

It was a catastrophic failure that led to instant death, so quick, that without any conscious of what had happened.

I don’t think that anything debated on here would cause any of the families of those who died any concern. They would want to know that their loved ones didn’t suffer.

I gather from others that Titan was an experimental craft engaged in scientific experiment and research, and so the passengers were not passengers but marine specialists or some other title and therefore part of the crew.

That sounds to me like a very dodgy legal device to avoid regulation and much else besides. Apparently there is a loophole in USA law over all this.

As Polar Star was based and went from Canada, and unless I am mistaken Canada is still a Dominion of the UK, and had 3 UK nationals on board it then Titan, we are probably going to have quite a contentious Inquiry procedure about this, same as happened in 1912.

It is my view that whatever device was used, this was a contract with a substantial payment for a trip on a ship then a submersible. And for those UK citizens, you cannot have a valid waiver or disclaimer of death for civilians. Such a waiver or disclaimer would be null and void.

Edited By julian atkins on 24/06/2023 01:37:23

Edited By julian atkins on 24/06/2023 01:38:30

Hi Dave,

Many many thanks for your above post which is extremely interesting, and useful.

Cheers,

Julian

I’m not too sure about Hopper’s last post in that it would have been extremely newsworthy at the time in April 1912 if Artie Moore had received any of Titanic’s distress signals. Ergo he had a front page article about him in the Daily Sketch newspaper on 7th October 1911 with pics about the Italy/Libya Declaration of War. And the death of the Russian premier in the last week of September 1911 in newspaper coverage plus the ramming of RMS Olympic (20th September 1911). It really ought not to be have been a surprise to the locality (including the local Police) that Artie might have had a receipt of signals of distress from Titanic, and that the newspapers both locally and nationally would be extremely interested! And probably with payment.

Yet 3 of us have been researching contemporaneous newspaper archives and we can find so far absolutely nothing about Artie and Titanic sinking and linking them. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing until a brief sentence devoid of any detail in his obituary and the ‘by line’ in the Merthyr Express newspaper 5th February 1949.

Given that in December 1909 Artie Moore wrote an article for ME, and was quite happy to be interviewed by newspapers and photographed in late September/early October 1911, he then apparently remains completely silent on matters Titanic at the time. Just doesn’t add up to me.

The problem I have is that say if Marconi had visited this part of South Wales in 1912 there is no contemporaneous record of such a visit that I have been able to find so far. It isn't even mentioned in Artie Moore's obituary in1949.

All I can find is that at the Gwent Archive the Monmouthshire 'Special Higher Education sub-committee' minutes of 12th June 1912 record :-

"Mr Arthur E. Moore. We have heard with pleasure that Mr Arthur E. Moore of Pontllanfraith, has been appointed to a post under the Marconi International Marine Communication Company Limited, and we have authorised the payment to him of the balance of his Bursary amounting to £3 17s 6d"

I suppose (and not state as any fact, or based on any primary source evidence) that Artie Moore might have been very happy to get away from Gelligroes Mill where he had had this most debilitating accident in his youth.

What we do know is that although ill in 1948/9, Artie was not interred or cremated back in the land of his birth, but when he died his family travelled to Bristol for the service.

I find that very odd.

Hi Dave (SillyOldDuffer),

Can I ask you about the coherer please that apparently Artie used. It is subsequently claimed much later on that Artie upgraded his wireless telegraphy set after October 1911 or thereabouts so that by the time Titanic sank his set was not that as per the Daily Sketch pics that we now have the glass plate negatives of, and was better.

I don’t think he would have had much time to do this anyway, as he then went away to London to study for 3 months, but is there evidence of a coherer in the Daily Sketch pic of the inside of his shed? I don’t think you saw one in the pic that you annotated. If not, had he already upgraded his set by the beginning of October 1911 when the pic you so helpfully analysed was published? (This would actually be potentially quite an important matter in considering the veracity or otherwise of other accounts).

Many thanks again for all your help on this.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 21/06/2023 00:03:38

Artie Moore’s 16th December 1909 article for ME (about his horizontal steam engine) mentions that he had made his own lathe. It isn’t a very detailed article in many respects, and doesn’t mention how his lathe was powered or where it was located. Running it off the water wheel as claimed many years later could easily be supposition. I’m not too happy with it being run off the Mill water wheel. He stated in the 1909 article that he started the horizontal steam engine some 4 years earlier, and was pretty much a lone hand making it without drawings, and had only recently been aware of the ME magazine. It was of 1 9/16” bore and 1 1/2” stroke and he altered its single eccentric to later have proper Stephensons valve gear with a reversing mechanism. At 20 psi it did 800 rpm. No details of any boiler.

I suppose if he could make a dynamo run off the Mill, then he was capable of making an electric motor? But I think that in 1909 that would be of greater significance and interest than his rather basic horizontal steam engine in 1909, and the timings are not consistent, as his interest in matters relating to electricity and wireless telegraphy would appear to be after 1909. Or perhaps he just called upon one of his brothers to operate a treadle for the lathe? (My own lathe is pretty basic with no back gear, and I’ve turned 3 sets of wheels for miniature locos and a 5” gauge wagon simply by turning by hand the end of the mandrel by hand for certain stages! For other locos I used other ME club members’ lathes on the condition that I cleaned them down thoroughly removing all the cast iron crap left on the lathe!).

In Artie’s article of 1909 he mentioned boring out roughly the bore of the cylinder, then finishing it with emery. It was stated to be a brass cylinder. He mentions making some of his own castings, which I did myself for my first loco except in my case this was in the facilities of Ryde High School metal work department when I was in the 6th form. He states that the base for the engine and the flywheel were cast by a local foundry.

My first workshop was in my bedroom in my parents’ house. Then I bought a nice but small shed to go in their garden. So perhaps certain parallels with Artie, who definitely did have his wireless telegraphy set in a wooden shed behind the Mill cottages and barn.

I don’t think that I would want to be in the Mill with it’s dust and noise, and I would want to be in my own ‘space’ and not to be constrained by only doing stuff when the Mill was in operation. I also don’t think that the Mill was particularly active by 1909. This isn’t like other parts of the UK with huge fields of corn and barley etc. It was really turning into a wholesaler of stuff. One of the Kelly’s Directory entries of the period includes a shop as part of the Mill. The Gwent Archive doesn’t have a full set of the Kelly’s Directory, but of those that they have and I looked at this was pretty clear.

Edited By julian atkins on 20/06/2023 22:07:00

Hi Hopper and Michael,

Thanks for the links.

I have to disagree about Scott Caldwell in respect of his article about Artie Moore. It merely regurgitates earlier inaccurate articles, and most significantly repeats the same errors. In essence what I stated in my first post of this thread.

Cheers,

Julian

My hunch, and I have only some contemporaneous evidence to back this up is that Artie did want to join the Marconi Company/ies, but he had first to qualify with the Post Master General’s certificate.

He was getting on a bit and at the age limit of 25 for joining Marconi, and couldn’t afford the course at either the Marconi School then in Liverpool or the British School of Telegraphy in Clapham London, so the local education committee made an exceptional bursary of the largest amount for that year so he could go to the British School of Telegraphy. That decision was made on 22nd September 1911 initially.

I did look at over 12 months of the Marconigram magazine for 1911/12 and there was criticism of Cunard not updating the set on Carpathia. Obviously no criticism of that which Marconi had supplied and fitted to the Carpathia!

The Marconigram Magazine is now online. Easy to check. No mention of Artie Moore at all in the monthly editions I looked at. Very detailed account of pretty much everything Marconi did and where he went. And who he met. He was incredibly busy in 1912 attending 2 Titanic Inquiries, dealing with an international conference, opening the new site at Chelmsford making his kit (big new factory), a new training school at Chelmsford, then a serious injury in a road accident. Plus the various scandals that emerged over insider share dealings. Quoting Parliamentary Debates.

I really don’t think that taking a detour to visit Artie at Gelligroes would have even been on his radar let alone his agenda or diary.

Edited By julian atkins on 20/06/2023 01:35:39

Hi Dave,

That is very interesting!

Olympic and Titanic had the most powerful transmitting sets. Titanic had new type of transmitter with a different sound. The Californian had quite a good set apparently of 1.5kw but running on lower voltage (60v instead of 100v) and was nevertheless very good. Carpathia’s set was quite knackered. It needed repair apparently when it later returned to dock at New York with those whom it had rescued from Titanic. The Mount Temple early on found the Carpathia’s signals faint. The Baltic also seemed to have had a bit of a duff set.

Cape Race picked up the CQD from Titanic and contacted the Virginian. Manned by 2 wireless operators same as Olympic and Titanic, and with quite a good set. On Titanic, Phillips initially had difficulty hearing on his earphones due to steam venting off from the forward boilers.

Most ships had the earlier 1.5kw set, and in some cases such as the Carpathia’s, not working very well.

I think it very unlikely that Artie Moore would have been able to receive any messages from any of the ships with the earlier 1.5kw set. A big White Star liner such as the Baltic with Marconi Inspector Balfour on board had trouble transmitting to Titanic after receiving the CQD. The Mount Temple and the Carpathia kept silent after their initial exchanges with Titanic saying in effect they had turned round and were on their way to the CQD position.

Had Evans on The Californian stayed up after his DDD from Phillips around 11.05pm ships time on The Californian warning of being stopped due to ice some 45 minutes earlier, it’s quite effective set (only a year old) might have made a difference.

So I think that pretty much rules out any ships other than Olympic and Titanic. Titanic with it’s new thingy sending the spark.

I have not found any evidence of other ships other than those relatively close to Titanic except Olympic further away picking up it’s signals. There is no evidence of say a ship off Ireland or going up the Bristol Channel to Swansea or Cardiff or Bristol receiving any signals at all in respect of the Titanic disaster that Artie Moore could perhaps have easily been able to receive. That also assumes that he spent every night (when at night time messages transmitted could be received at much longer distances) up listening on the off chance for something of interest. Then going asleep during the day when his Dad probably would like him to help out in the business of the trade and running of the Mill.

Edited By julian atkins on 20/06/2023 01:09:41

Hi Dave!

Very many thanks for your analysis of the inside of Artie's shed and the wireless telegraphy equipment!

Fascinating!

You are the first person to have ever, to my knowledge, done this, and I thank you for your time and effort on this task which must have been considerable and occupied a great deal of your time today and probably also yesterday.

Sorry, our posts crossed whilst I was typing something about Neil Wyatt's replies.

Do you think that Artie's set as per the pics of early October 1911 for the Daily Sketch was any good?

Hi Neil,

Thank you for your posts above, and thank you for telling us that you wrote the MEW article on Artie Moore.

I am very familiar with the 'Artie Moore Amateur Radio Society' website. Run by a certain Kevin Dawson but nothing updated for years. He also is the Admin on the 'Artie Moore Amateur Radio Society' Facebook page.

The BBC Wales online website repeated stuff about Artie Moore on 22nd May 2023. With stuff that was clearly inaccurate. He couldn't have made it to Caerphilly some 8 miles away at 5 am in the morning on his counterbalanced bicycle, and Gelligroes wasn't in Caerphilly Borough Council as it didn't exist until the mid 1970s - then, in 1912, it was still in Monmouthshire.

So let's look at the above 'Artie Moore Amateur Radio Society' website you state you relied upon, rather than the Wikipedia entries on Artie, or Gelligroes Mill, or do say an online check of the British Newspaper Archive...

No where is there any mention of Artie transmitting messages about Titanic, no where is there any mention of his father or one of his many brothers being involved, no where is there any mention of Artie attempting to boost reception of the signals Titanic was sending. No where is there any mention of Artie assuming it was some other ship or land based station.

Setting that aside for awhile, I would very much like to hear further from Dave (SillyOldDuffer) as to his thoughts on the pic of the inside of Artie's wooden shed and all the wireless telegraphy equipment and much else besides. I would very much appreciate Dave's assessment of the contents in that pic. Perhaps also be mindful that Artie's equipment may primarily have been to communicate with the other set of Richard Jenkins' high up on the mountain some 2 or3 miles away at Ty Llywed farm Ynysddu that did have a good aerial.

Just another point for Neil, Leighton Smart in his booklet (repeated by the Artie Moore Amateur Radio Society website) said Artie received the Titanic signals in the loft of Gelligroes Mill, which would imply that Artie had abandoned his shed to the confines of what would clearly have been a very dusty and at times noisy environment. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me, and I am sure that other model engineers would agree with me!

May I take this opportunity to thank forum members for their further posts, which I read with considerable interest.

Just to be pedantic, can I be allowed a few corrections.

1. At 11.40pm (ships time) Titanic hit the iceberg, then that is 3.07am GMT. Titanic sank at 5.18am GMT. There was a delay of some 47 minutes in sending out the first distress signal at 12.27am ships time 3.54am GMT.

2. Dave's most interesting OS map has his red arrow pointing slightly too far left into the garden of the adjacent Islwyn Cottage then still owned by the old Penllwyn Tramway Company. (The tree that had the ladder against it is no longer there).

3. There is still a street lamp!

4. For those looking at modern maps, this bit of the A4048 confusingly became the B4251 approximately 15 years ago.

5. According to Leighton Smart's booklet, in 1949 Councillor Richard Vines was also Headmaster of the local Pontllanfraith Technical School.

Thank you Michael - very helpful!

Scroll down to the bottom of the page of Michael's link. Click on the 3rd pic of inside Artie Moore's wooden shed which was his workshop and tell me what you see?

You can enlarge the pic quite a bit...

Edited By julian atkins on 18/06/2023 17:48:18