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This months MEW are 3 CNC features two too many

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David Colwill	14/05/2011 15:08:24
782 forum posts 40 photos	You're all hypocrites using your fancy lathes and milling machines. I'm currently working on a 1/4 scale model of the Titanic and am using nothing but an old file, a hammer and cold chisel. It has been tough going but after 3 months I've already done 132 of the 3,000,000 rivets that I need. Slightly off topic does anyone know where I can get suitable lumps of cast iron for the engine blocks?
john walker 3	14/05/2011 15:27:37
2 forum posts	CNC , I don't think so. Just looked at my 31/2in Drummond, which I love, and tried to picture it fitted out with stepper motors etc! Think I' ll stick to turning the handles and using my eyes, which is what its all about. I don't think I'll be renewing my subscription either. John
Steve Garnett	14/05/2011 16:07:07
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Terryd on 14/05/2011 15:01:03: Amusing thread, especially the antagonistic and insulting attitudes of the so called modernisers. Well not the insulting, perhaps (although this could only possibly be perceived, rather than explicit) - but the antagonism, yes. Seriously. Otherwise all you are left with is people being complacent in their attitudes. Back when I was doing Ed. theory lectures, I used to sum it up by saying that effective education has to cause brain damage - or it simply doesn't work; you end up with a brain doing just what it was before. So it's not about being antagonising just for the sake of it - I'd say that there's a real purpose to it. For those who haven't read it, there's a telling story about one aspect of this in relation to barometers, of all things, here.
Mark P.	14/05/2011 16:39:19
634 forum posts 9 photos	As an add on from my previous post,surely CNC and automation has caused the lack of skilled engineers and fitters we have today. Whilst I was working in the aircraft industry for an airline as a technician I was shocked by the lack of basic skills with hand tools the second year apprentices had on leaving the company training school.These lads had just spent one year in the training school,most could not use a file and hacksaw properly,their thereoetical knowledge was good but ask them to cut out a plate for an insert skin repair and they would be stumped! One or two could make a good fist of it, but most of them had no chance of producing anything near acceptable. In my view basic hand skills are more important than the use of CNC. I am now employed by a general engineering company,we have no CNC the only automatic machine is a 1940's Ward capstan lathe used only for making valve guides for big diesels, everything else is manual.I have even had to learn how to re-white metal bearing for older machines (very satisfying) Having said all that I do have an interest in technology but in the right place. Regards Pailo
Steve Garnett	14/05/2011 17:26:22
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Pailo on 14/05/2011 16:39:19: As an add on from my previous post,surely CNC and automation has caused the lack of skilled engineers and fitters we have today. Whilst I recognise what you're saying, I think it may be more accurate to say that those that are available are trained differently. In your terms you may regard them as less skilled - but in their terms they would regard you in just the same way; they just have a different skill-set. If a company training school doesn't train the workforce in a way that makes them useful, surely it gets rather immediate feedback to this effect? Or was it in fact reacting to the idea that there were already enough trainees with the hand-skills required, and that in the future a different skillset would be the order of the day? I keep getting the message that training is, in fact, a very expensive luxury for a lot of firms, especially nowadays. And from what you are saying, it sounds as though the training school was relying on these people picking up at least some of the skills they'd need on the shop floor rather than in the school? Compared to the length of a traditional skill-based apprenticeship, just one year doesn't sound a long time anyway. It's very difficult with education and training, though. I remember spending ages learning about fluidics back in the 60's, only to have the whole subject disappear from sight simply because the manufacturers hardly made any product, and it wasn't very popular. But whilst this could have seemed to be a bit of a waste of time from a training point of view, and definitely from a skills-based one, it certainly wasn't from an education perspective at all. I learned quite a lot about about fluid dynamics, and all of a sudden it's making a potential come-back in nanotechnology. So somebody somewhere kept this alive, at least as an idea, and that would only be because of the education system, I'm pretty sure. Was it right to teach it back then just because it looked promising? I don't know.
keithmart	14/05/2011 17:41:19
165 forum posts	Hi Surely the answer should be a dedicated magazine for CNC, so that those that like it can buy it, those that don't like it can stick with the manual machining, and my hobby store has the chance to make some more money. keith leeds uk
chris stephens	14/05/2011 17:53:30
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Keith, There is a valid place for CNC in MEW but this whole topic is about too much in any one issue. A magazine exclusively for CNC, aimed at the hobbyist, would soon founder, I suspect. chriStephens
Gordon W	14/05/2011 19:57:26
2011 forum posts	off course there's lots of of interest in (nearly) all the issues. But still can not find the free post address for the survey.
Flying Fifer	14/05/2011 22:26:28
180 forum posts	Evening all, 24 hours & it looks like I can lift my head above the parapet (or remove the anti-flak trousers), Remind me NOT to tick the "Alerts Box" in future!! Well what`s the score?? A draw methinks. All I would ask of our Editor is in future please, please, don`t fill pages in our mag with pages of code (for CNC) find another method to let those who are interested in programming get the code if they want it (eg by asking for it by email or downloading from the Forum. (that comment will no doubt stir up some more flak from the editorial team if any of them ever read this thread - isn`t there some exhibition on somewhere ? ) Gordon W you`ll have to use the Luddite free post method viz:- write it on your chalkboard, place (don`t drop) it on your scanner, scan it, upload it to your PC & email it to our Ed. Alternatively you can wrap it round an arrer fit it to your bow & fire it up Inverness way like wot that guy does on telly. Or hang it on a nail in the kazzy. Best regards to everyone Alan
NJH	14/05/2011 23:31:50
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Hi Alan I don't know how you get to the draw ? By a quick count ( not super accurate I accept) I make it 20 folk want less (or no) CNC articles, 4 really like them ( and are generally sniffy of those who don't) and 3 diplomats on the fence. However, of course, we cannot assume this to be representative of the readership as a whole. Steve as far as your barometer link goes it's a good example of the need to be very careful in how you put a question - That may have relevance to the survey returns! As to the answer I suspect the scheme of tying it to a rope, lowering it from the top of the building then measuring the rope would produce the most accurate result. Ah well no workshop fun for a few days - major decorating project here for a while! Regards Norman
Terryd	14/05/2011 23:58:49
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by Steve Garnett on 14/05/2011 00:26:40: So Steve gets in from the pub, reads the thread, roars with laughter and concludes that: 1) Martin (blowlamp) = truly Renaissance Man, I'd guess, who gets my vote for what he said, and I'm not sure about your definition of 'Renaissance Man' Steve, I wish you would elaborate! Best regary
Martin W	15/05/2011 00:15:27
940 forum posts 30 photos	Norman I am slightly worried by your answer regarding the most accurate way of measuring the building's height. As the barometer is lowered the rope to which it is attached will surely stretch due to the weight of the barometer so you have to make an allowance for this, then to compound the error the weight of the rope will need to be taken into account as this will also cause the rope to stretch. Unfortunately the rope, depending on how far from the point of attachment, will have a varying load so even if the barometer is allowed to touch the floor there will be a load on the rope . Therefore if the rope is measured over a flat surface it will be shorter than the building is tall . Methinks we need even more information . Cheer and good luck with the decorating. Martin Edited By Martin W on 15/05/2011 00:16:12
blowlamp	15/05/2011 00:48:36
1885 forum posts 111 photos	Here are some other non-CNC topics in issue 177 of MEW, that some people might object to being published, on the grounds that they've all been featured before, in one form or another. Two Wheel Knurling Tool Using Collets In The Lathe A Drill Sharpening Jig Metric Screwcutting Now if I start a thread and kick up a fuss, because I've seen this all before, or I'm bored by it and want them 'banned' from the magazine, what's left for others to read? Just so we know for future reference, could the 'We Don't Want Any CNC Articles Brigade' please tell the rest of us at what date time stopped, so the sniffy ones don't accidentally appreciate - or indeed ask for something - that the self-styled arbiters of content here, find is too modern for them to digest? Martin. Edited By blowlamp on 15/05/2011 00:52:12 Edited By blowlamp on 15/05/2011 00:54:40
Steve Garnett	15/05/2011 00:50:42
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Terryd on 14/05/2011 23:58:49 I'm not sure about your definition of 'Renaissance Man' Steve, I wish you would elaborate! With pleasure. Blowlamp's response on the first page shows quite clearly that he regards CNC as one of an arsenal of tools he can use, and also that he can see the issues raised from other perspectives as well. So let's take a typical definition of renaissance man: *"A renaissance man or polymath* is a person who is skilled in multiple fields or multiple disciplines, and who has a broad base of knowledge."** Whilst he's by no means the only person doing this here, I think he was the first to respond in a manner which immediately made me think that as well as exhibiting a mechanical appreciation, he also appreciated the issue from a philosophical and historical one. And it's pretty clear from some other reactions to this issue that others, er, haven't necessarily done that at all... But before the rest of you get the hump, I'm absolutely not having a go at anybody. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and it would be very boring if everybody behaved and thought exactly the same way, wouldn't it? ******************************************************************** Several people in the past have considered that the best way of measuring the height of the building with the barometer is to use it to measure it up the side and express the result in barometer units. It is quite refreshing though that this hasn't happened here, and I think that's entirely due to the general adherence in engineering circles to single reference datums for measuring, to reduce probable cumulative errors. Almost certainly, the best answer of the ones given, at least, is the last one. Although I have some metaphysical doubts about that too... (along the lines of 'how would you know the answer you were given was correct?') Regds, Steve
NJH	15/05/2011 10:53:01
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Hi Steve "...Almost certainly, the best answer of the ones given, at least, is the last one." Well.... It is also the most expensive (cost of barometer), dangerous ( "selling" goods he didn't own), and the answer is not verifiable. I still favour the simple long rope method. I suspect that , even allowing for the inaccuracies due to the rope stretching ( which could be allowed for ) , the result would be better than a barometer - unless it was a very accurate (and expensive) instrument! All this could have been avoided if the question had been "... using a barometer alone to calculate...." Now enough of these leafy lanes and back to the brilliant white emulsion ! (urrk) Norman Edited By NJH on 15/05/2011 10:53:58
Terryd	15/05/2011 11:40:31
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by Steve Garnett on 15/05/2011 00:50:42: With pleasure. Blowlamp's response on the first page shows quite clearly that he regards CNC as one of an arsenal of tools he can use, and also that he can see the issues raised from other perspectives as well. So let's take a typical definition of renaissance man: *"A renaissance man or polymath* is a person who is skilled in multiple fields or multiple disciplines, and who has a broad base of knowledge."..................** Regds, Steve Hi Steve, A succinct. if lacking, definition. certainly a true Renaissance Man Has a wide and often expert depth of knowledge over a large and diverse number of Fields and Disciplines from the Sciences to the Humanities and arts as well as concomitant skills. However the term is derived from the beliefs and tenets of the Renaissance Humanists who included social skills such as Courtesy, Kindness, Understanding, Acceptance and Enlightenment among the essential skills of the 'Renaissance Man'. It was also understood that he would always behave in a 'gentlemanly' rather than boorish manner. Blowlamp may be a good engineer but a Leonardo Da Vinci? Best regards Terry
Terryd	15/05/2011 12:17:03
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by blowlamp on 13/05/2011 23:49:15: Incoming flak! I'm sure the first blokes that used a lathe of some sort got slated by their peers for missing out on the pleasure of bringing their work to the round by applying a hand-made abrasive device to its surface, whilst supporting it in the crook of a branch of an English Oak........................................ Martin. Funny you should say that Martin, Quite a few years ago I broke down in a remote part of Rural France while on a family caravan holiday. Late in the day and France was closed for Le Weekend. There were no mobile phones in those distant, primitive days, but my two young children and my wife were getting distressed. The nearby Phone box was a newly converted card only one, there was no sign of life anywhere nor traffic passing. I discovered that the problem was caused by a broken pin in the gear change linkage, it had sheared and half had disappeared, the other half jammed in place. I sat there cursing the fact that I had left the Boxford CNC lathe on the bench at school together with the materials stock. Didn't matter much as I'd forgotten the generator as well. However that depressing thought was soon cast out when I remembered the immortal advice on the front of the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - "DON'T PANIC" - and I decided to act to get the circus back on the road as the stocks of food didn't run to a family of four for weekend by the roadside. First I investigated my simple toolbox and found an 8" flat file and a broken hacksaw blade in a pad saw handle somewhere near the bottom. Looking for some suitable materials I spied an old fashioned winder type can opener - the type with one flat handle and one made from round bar. What more could I need? Damn, I'd forgotten the bench vice - how I regretted bolting it down in my garage. Fortunately in the (French) oak tree nearby there was a crack and I was able to wedge the can opener in there with the round bar handle sticking out. I managed to file that into a taper pin about 2" long having sawn off the ball on the end. I kept trying the handle until it seemed that I could use it to knock out and replace the remains of the broken pin. I then cut it to length using my Oak tree vice and to my joy it worked perfectly and the taper acted to hold the pin in place. We were back on the road and Dad was the hero, priceless and not a credit card in sight. (In fact the pin was still in place and behaving when I sold the car 2 years later. The remains of the opener are probably still in that tree today and will be grown over, much to the chagrin - and perhaps bemusement - of some future sawyer trying to convert the timber.) Actually the amusing bit was that I got soaked in a typically torrential French summer storm, so I stripped off my wet clothes and completed most of the work wearing only my swimming trunks and a pair of flip flops in the pouring rain, it must have been a strange sight! Moral - "Ingenuity tops technology"? Nah! the real moral is to always to keep a CNC lathe, together with a generator and materials stock handy. Or don't leave home. Regards Terry Edited By Terryd on 15/05/2011 12:29:30
Terryd	15/05/2011 13:00:28
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by Steve Garnett on 14/05/2011 16:07:07: Posted by Terryd on 14/05/2011 15:01:03: Amusing thread, especially the antagonistic and insulting attitudes of the so called modernisers. Well not the insulting, perhaps (although this could only possibly be perceived, rather than explicit) - but the antagonism, yes. Seriously. Otherwise all you are left with is people being complacent in their attitudes. Back when I was doing Ed. theory lectures, I used to sum it up by saying that effective education has to cause brain damage - or it simply doesn't work; you end up with a brain doing just what it was before. So it's not about being antagonising just for the sake of it - I'd say that there's a real purpose to it. Hi Steve, "antagonise [ænˈtægəˌnaɪz] vb (tr) 1. to make hostile; annoy or irritate" How does antagonising someone stimulate them to overcome what you perceive as their complacency or into changing their attitudes? It merely tends to stimulate an antagonistic response. I also find your approach to the psychology of learning quite interesting, unusual but interesting, and different to my own (developed over 30 odd years of successful practice) and that of my lecturers at University. Best regards Terry
mgj	15/05/2011 13:53:04
1017 forum posts 14 photos	Well it doesn't IMO have much with my psychology, or developments a coming or even with whats gone, or even whether CNC is a worthy successor to manual metal munching.. Personally I buy a magazine because its contents interest me. However marvellous CNC may be (I used to do a lot of control engineering and guidance theory, so unfamiliar, Luddite or reactionary I am not) personally I find it just plain dull. And when I see a page of code, "Wow awesome" is hardly my first response. More like "Wonderful" in that wifely tone we know so well, and for the same reasons. For those that like it, good for them, its not for me to criticise or interfere. I'm just not going to pay for a magazine full of it. Given the response in this thread as a whole, that is possibly a hint our beloved Editor might want to take. If his polls and survey say otherwise, then he has a judgement to make, and he will know soon enough whether he jumped the right way. Edited By mgj on 15/05/2011 13:54:05 Edited By mgj on 15/05/2011 13:55:47
IanH	15/05/2011 14:10:42
129 forum posts 72 photos	Hi, First off let me say that I haven't read the issue in contention because I let my subscription run out by accident.........doh! but as keen CNC user at home I can see little point and hardly any interest (even for me as an enthusiast) in pages and pages of G Code if that is what these articles contain. If you get into CNC you will very quickly realise that you will rarely go near G Code, the computer will look after all of that for you - the interest and challenge is in the new opportunities that are now open to you and sorting out how to exploit them on a budget (real 3D CAD and CAM software is extremely expensive and most home machines will be home brewed conversions of one sort or another). I think that if we had articles on what folk were doing with CNC that might be a whole lot more interesting for everyone. Articles giving print outs of G code in past issues have left me wondering whether some of the authors have realy "got" CNC, or just got lost in it? Ian

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