Plasma cutter at lidl

Interesting…

When I bought mine, I noted that the tape across the box had been ‘reinforced/overlaid’. I assumed this was a ‘factory mod’ to hurriedly replace the plug with a 16A one - likely after comments on here, or elsewhere.

I have just getting around to trying it out - not had chance, really, since buying it.

HOWEVER, I thought I would check a little closer this morning and guess what!?

The power lead is only of 1.5mm ^2 cross section! Cheap s*ds replaced a 13A plug with a 16A rated plug on a 10A rated flex.

Should we be requesting a suitably rated flex? I think so.

Certified 1.5mm^2 flexible cord has a 16 A current carrying capacity at 230V AC so should be adequate for the purpose. I suspect the unit would overheat before the cable did.

That was probably a return by someone who wanted a 13A plug.

The previous release of '30A' machines (I have one) were Euro 40A /16A plug versions with the current limiting pot turned down and a 13A plug fitted. The lead is still 1.5sqmm.

Current ratings depend on how much heat you are prepared to accept in the cable. Companies like BT in the 90's were only happy with no heat rise above ambient due to PVC plasticizer migration at 60degC, their buildings have windows and the sun can cause that much heat on it's own. So cables were sized more generously than some of the cable tv firms.

In this case the shortness of the lead mitigates the issue and I doubt for DIY use you will notice much heat in the 5 minutes that you will have it cutting.

Definitely Read the Flipping Manual!

Very clear this is an Industrial machine designed to run on an industrial type supply, not an ordinary 13A domestic socket. The 16A plug is surely a strong hint!

Unfortunately, the manual doesn't specify input current or power. However the 16A plug means a 13A spur will supply the cutter, even though overloaded. So far so good.

Unfortunately, putting a 13A plug on the machine breaks all the requirements listed in manual. The warranty is void, the cutter no longer meets even slack industrial EMC requirements and it's highly likely to annoy neighbours. If the house burns down it's 100% the owners fault. Best hope the insurer doesn't find out, because most policies don't cover damage caused by operating industrial machinery and especially not industrial machines electrically modified by an over-confident hobbyist!

Safer ground if the machine is plugged into a professionally installed 16A socket because it's more likely the supply meets the necessary standard. Otherwise fitting a 13A plug means the owner is taking a risk.

I'm all for risk managed engineering, but it does require an adequate understanding of what might go wrong, what the impact will be, ways of mitigating the risk, and a recovery plan should the worst happen.

One risk is poor EMC wiping out radio signals - radio, tv, mobile phones, satellite, and WiFi. Impact ranges from zero, because they don't find who's causing it, to getting duffed up by an angry football fan after you zapped the cup final climax. Expect policemen if an essential radio service is disrupted, followed by fines and confiscation of equipment. None of this is likely is the cutter is operated intermittently in short bursts and there are no close neighbours: it's just anti-social.

More serious is the prospect of damaging cables inside the walls by overheating the insulation, perhaps slowly baking it until it disintegrates and causes a house fire. Fitting a 13A fuse only partly protects against this because fuses can actually take 20A continuously, 50A for 100 seconds and 80A for 1 second. If I owned one of these cutters I'd measure how much mains current it actually draws when cutting: below 13A, I'm happy (apart from the EMC). Anything in the 15-40A range is unacceptably risky because a 13A fuse allows the cutter to work for a long time in short bursts, with dodgy consequences.

Dave

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/03/2022 15:00:14

One could always use a 15A round pin plug and sockets. .

I wouldn't be worried about the Lidl plasma cutter's EMI emmisions, Any plasma cutter will produce a fair amount of EMI, and a fair number of us probably have far more highly rated ones.

True, but unwise to assume that. My home, which isn't ancient, has an old-fashioned consumer unit with fuses. I suspect many sheds and home workshops have downright dubious electrics. Much depends on who installed it and when...

Dave

I think the whole 13A / 16A discussion comes from the fact that the German standard (Schuko) plugs are rated 16A. 1.5mm2 is the right cross section for that. For some reason standard plugs in the UK are rated 13A.

As Frances IoM said further up the 13A fuse is to protect the flexibe cable from the socket to the device - the cable is the same in whole Europe (even the UK is no longer in the EU we still are a member of CENELEC and will be in the future, and we use flexible cables according to BS EN 50525 - which are harmonised all over Europe)

The type H05VV-F 3G1.5 according to BS EN 50525-2.11 is rated 16A. So it will not overheat.

Old or not, the ring mains will be designed for and fused at 30A.

Your ring is fed through a 30A fuse as Mark says, you probably have a fuse wire card somewhere in your house to confirm it.

Your house is probably the only non-ancient one in the country that risks burning down when you run a kettle at the same time as the toaster in the kitchen. There is absolutely no need to keep taking the kettle upstairs to boil it.

I was hoping tat by now to have had some reports about the performance of the machine. Looking at various videos it would appear that it suffers from compressor condensation which effects the cutting finish. I would like to know more if anybody has tested it yet but as the weather has been rough, perhaps good tests have not been possible.

It's not you who should be worried, it's the people you are interfering with

SOD pretty much covered it other than harmonics. These are imposed on the mains and can cause transformers and motors to overheat, damage electronic equipment etc.

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

Like speeding, not getting caught or having an accident "this time" does not mean it is right or any less illegal.

Robert G8RPI

The one thing I've not seen mentioned is LEV. I'm an ex welder fabricator and I'm now a supporting engineer for Naval workshops and I cannot stress highly enough the dangers of metal fumes from cutting and welding. My recommendation is to purchase an air fed mask and ensure good ventilation when metal cutting. If in a professional environment then a suitable Local Exhaust Ventilation system is a must too especially as it protects other workers in close proximity whom may not be wearing an air fed during their activities.

Worth a read too- https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg258.htm

My expensive Licoln tig welder (~5k new) re-sets the digital clock on my workshop wall to 01:00 01/01/1999 sometimes and for some strange reason also causes it to play Greensleeves at the same time, due the the HF start. My £80 Lidl plasma never has.

So I'm with Mark Rand on this.

Last time I looked 2.5mm was good for 27Amps

regards Martin

Where things normally fail is bad terminations or worn socket connectors so the pins get hot.

Edited By Martin Kyte on 15/03/2023 22:03:44

Been a giggle reading this thread. Illegal/not illegal, not sure i'd really care in this particular instance, but looks like i missed the boat on getting one.

It should be illegal my neighbours irradiating me with multiple wireless networks, but it isn't.

Did anyone actually buy one & use it? Any good?

Just for the record, 1.5mm2 flex is good for 16A , ~ie that's it's IEE (?) (conservative) rating.

A 13A british plug run for any length of time @ 13A is prone to get hot.

Please DO NOT fit a cheap Chinese 13A plug. They just aint up to the job. Please at least buy a decent plug MK or whatever.

For high current devices i actually fit old pre insulated pin British made plugs (i've a few squirreled away)

Now that technically is also illegal, but if you compare the build quality to any modern 13A plug ~ well lets just say i'd trust my electrical safety to the old plugs any day.

FWIW, If you have a 'period' electrical appliance fitted with an old style plug that needs a PAT test & the tester fails it on the plug, tell them to take a running jump.They are wrong.

Only fitting an old plug to more modern equipment is a PAT fail.

This is a good point which is often overlooked in a home workshop, for an occasional user a PAPR headtop is probably a bit much, but at least buying some metal fume rated disposable masks would be a good idea.

This said, for anyone who welds frequently or for long periods they're worth having. I bought a second-hand 3M Adflo which is hands down the single best purchase I have made for welding, massively improved my comfort levels whilst also protecting my lungs, what's not to like.

I also installed an LEV system (albeit home made) which is essential for arc-welding inside as the fumes from burning 30 or 40 cellulosic rods in quick succession will totally overwhelm the workshop without the ventilator running.

All this said, I tend to do plasma and flame cutting outside due to the sheer volume of sparks and molten slag produced.

The plasma cutters without the built in compressor were on offer again last Sunday, so your local Lidl might have one left.

Last year I picked up something second hand, though I can't remember what it was now, but certainly advertised as tested and in working order.
It also had one of the older plugs without the extra insulators.
I did chop it off though, and fitted a good used plug from my squirrel stocks.

The main screw was so rusted I needed to get inside with a Warrington screwdriver to check the fuse.



Bill

Edited By peak4 on 16/03/2023 01:19:35

What's the implication of running equipment which meets the relevant standards for Class A (Industrial) but not Class B (Domestic) in a home environment, it's not clear from a cursory search what duty (if any) to control for EMI from CE marked equipment is placed on the end user, or from which law(s) such a duty would originate.

My plasma cutter is a 50A ESAB jobbie, the manual declares that it is designed to EN50199 (Electromagnetic compatibility - Product standard for arc welding equipment) for conformity with 89/336/EEC (the EMC compatibility directive), so in principle is it is an entirely compliant device, but it very clearly falls into Class A.

When the DNO visited to discuss putting in a 3-phase supply, they didn't bat an eyelid at the equipment, because from a network perspective my utilisation levels and number of starts was well below that of several light industrial users connected to the same substation.

I would also be interested to know if running off a Gen-Set decreases or removes the problems, or if it's actually RF emissions which are the issue (as with HF start TIG welders).

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:31:09