Electric vehicles

Or the true necessity of those countless millions of journeys each day by 'commuters' into the 'cities'.

I made no pretence of being guilt free.,, indeed it is cheap leccy power that encourages me.. less than £10 for that trip and I take my own thermos and sarnies too 'cos I'm cheap as well as wasteful

How big are motorway service areas going to have to be?

I can put 500 miles worth of fuel in my piston-engined car and drive away in 5 minutes or so. Even if battery car ranges improve beyond 300 miles (very optimistic as of now), there'll still be huge need for recharging on long motorway journeys - technicians and consultants will still need to travel for work. If it takes 45 minutes or more to charge an electric vehicle for another 100 miles, how many charging points will the service areas need?

Still sounds like a nightmare to me.

Once again: Current EV's are available with 350+ mile real world range Tesla (albeit not cheap)

Tesla promise 500 mile range on the cybertruck and 600 mile range on the roadster when they come out .. again not cheap.

To top up my car by 100 mile range when its near empty isn't 45mins it's 20 mins. On the newer cheaper model3 75KWh 360 mile range (300 real world) a mere 100 mile top-up from near empty is less than 15mins. At the moment supercharger queues are a rarity UK - I've never had to queue. But that will likely change

Current cheapest tesla UK is £40K with a 50KWh 260 mile range (200+ real world) and recharge from a V3 supercharger empty to 90% is circa 20 mins.

And most folk on long journeys need comfort breaks anyway

Edited By pgk pgk on 19/11/2020 09:54:18

It must be nice to be a politician: you buy votes with impressive, ambitious promises, and then blame your minions for failing to deliver the impossible. However, moving on from ranting...

A fully-charged EV battery holds an awful lot of energy and presumably has a low enough internal resistance to release said energy frighteningly quickly - probably more quickly than a full tank of petrol can be burned, unless vapourized. There have been a few reported electric vehicle burn-ups, but what happens to the battery pack in a major smash? What precautions have to be taken by emergency services attending an EV crash?

At these public charge points what do they cost per KWh? Can you set an amount you want and walk away for a coffee or dies the car suck up all it has capacity for?

I wonder how many terrorist organisations are investigating this right now and how the Security services are responding?

The previously made post regarding distribution of power is probably correct. I imagine that if even half the houses on my street attempted to charge electric cars at the same time, the safety devices in the local sub-station would operate to stop the distribution cables melting.

Hi, NDIY, I thought that we were all engineers of one kind or another, so why slag off someone's reasonable question as being a silly thread? I think it is a perfectly valid point to think about.

As engineers I thought the discussion would be more towards expressing solutions to the pending problems to the climate changes and which, will be a diminishing supply of oil resources in the long term and finding alternative energy resources. History has proved that as a human race together, we can improve and advance our lives in every respect, OK, there's been a number of mistakes along the way and some have missed the boat, but who in their right mind would want to go back to the stone age? I have no doubt that given time all the energy problems about electric vehicles will be solved to an acceptable level for the majority and improvements will most likely be found over the next generation or two, and for all the best will in the world, poverty will never entirety cease.

Myself, I don't think I'll have to worry about having to buy and charge an electric car and I may not even be here when the sale ban of ICE's comes into force, not that I'm planning to move on any time soon, but I don't drive even half the miles I use to and it is likely to be less in 9 years time.

Regards Nick.

I don't want to monopolise here but:

Damaged batteries are a worry since inevitably car accidents happen. Batterie have been know to grumble away internally and then runaway soem days later. The Netherlands have facilities for duming whole EV cars ina large tank of water. Many other places just dump them in a spare field for a week or two if they look as though battery damage may have occurred. Reported sponanteous fires have occurred.. very rare and likely overall less hazard than from accidents and petrol fires.

Bazyle: At these public charge points what do they cost per KWh? Can you set an amount you want and walk away for a coffee or dies the car suck up all it has capacity for?

The car determines the charge rate it can accept and monitors fluctuations in case they indicate cable/charger damage. You set how much recharge you want - again in-car. Cost is highly variable on public chargers. Many slow ones are provided free by supermarkets - but so slow as to be hopeless or the newere EV's. Tesla charges 25-27p/KWh on their system (only tesla owners and autodebitted from your a/c). Most chargers cost circa 30-35p per KWh and again prices can be reduced by 'membership' of charger groups The most expensive are the new Ionity chargers @ an absurd price in excess of 70p/KWh BUT they are rated at 350KW for cars that can pull that level (very few yet) and there are agreements for much cheaper rates on their system when buying new EV's from certain manufacturers. Equally one has to accept the costs of putting the infrastructure in place and maintaining it and how mcuh gov grants towards it. Ecotricity chargers for instance were plastered all over the place with gov grants but the network is so badly maintained as to be a lottery if you need it.

Undoubtedly the cheapest charge is from a home system via a smart meter and a supplier that promotes EV power use. Over on tesla forums there are folk charging for 5p/KWh for several hours overnight. On a model3 home charging at 7KW (=30 miles an hour) that works out at just over 1p/mile. My home rate (out in the sticks where SMETS doesn;t work) I pay 16p/KW = £16 full charge for 300miles summer range in my 2yr old car.

You can google ZAPMAP and look up all UK chargers , speeds and price on the map and when they were last used and functional. In practical usage you never want to be reliant on less than 50KW speeds unless on an overnight stop at a hotel.

There is a lot wrong with the current systems but it is improving and no reason why it can't be sorted within 9yrs wth the will to do so.

pgk

What worries me is the number of folk who still don't get it. This ain't tree-hugging, humanity are facing major changes in the way we live.

Energy has been dirt cheap for 300 years. Literally dirt-cheap because it comes out of the ground. Party on! Aircraft, cars, fertilizers, central-heating, air-con, cheap food, steel, plastics, mass-production, world trade, pensions, health systems, comfortable safe lives, personal freedoms, wealth. The list is endless. It's great, and we're all energy junkies.

But the party is very obviously coming to an end. And it's a triple whammy:

• We've passed 'peak oil', which is the point at which oil cannot be pumped out fast enough to meet demand. Many oil fields are either exhausted or nearly drained. Unlike the brief scare in the 1970s, the world has now been thoroughly explored. There are no new large sources of oil on the planet. More coal about but same basic problem, God isn't making any more.
• Demand for energy is rising year on year as the world develops. China is a good example; when I was a boy, Pekin (Beijing) was full of pedestrians and bicycles. Times change. The People's Republic has been the largest market in the world for new cars since 2009, and in June 2020, they reported 360,000,000 vehicles on the road. Similar enthusiasm for car owning around the world, and everyone wants oil. The price of petrol and diesel will rise sharply as soon as demand exceeds supply.  Expect big increases within 5 to 10 years.
• Burning huge quantities of fossil fuels over the last 300 years has caused global warning and - it now appears certain - has triggered irreversible Climate Change. Failure to act in time is going to force unwelcome change on billions of people, including here. One unpleasant scenario for the UK is losing the Gulf Stream because the polar ice-gap has melted. This warm sea current gives Northern Europe an abnormally moderate climate for our latitude. As London is 10° north of Toronto, and Edinburgh is further north than Moscow, losing the Gulf Stream will make England much colder than we're used to. Not 'put on a coat' colder - it would effect everything.

I believe the looming economic problem is pushing government policy. Unlike Climate Change, where the science is difficult, the effects of demand and shortage on prices are well understood by politicians and businessmen. The problem has to be addressed, and the main issue is it's been left too late.

Schopenhauer observed: 'All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.' Faced with an unpleasant reality too many get stuck in stages One and Two. 'This cannot be happening!'

We shouldn't be surprised by change. History is full of it - one effing thing after another. We think motor cars are so ordinary they must be a human right. Nope. Mass car ownership in the UK is only about 60 years old. I walked 4 miles a day to school and then went to work on a bus. Though fading, working horses were still about in the 1950s. Steam locomotion only started 170 years ago. None of today's world is permanent; we have to move on.

So think kindly of 'tree-huggers' - they're trying to fix a horrific problem. Unlike detractors, too many of whom are bottom up with their heads in the sand! Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/11/2020 10:49:52

At peak times I'd guess most houses pull an extra 3-4KW with kettles, TV's, stoves cooking. Possibly more than that level compared to their off peak usage. Home car charging is typically 7KW and off-peak so if half the folk in your street charged off-peak then the cables are carrying their typical load.

Rather than continue monopolising here I'll stay quiet unless specifically asked for a comment.

pgk

Its only change. Change is neither good or bad its just change. Technology always changes, always brings disruption - at least ever sense we decided that technology was a thing.
The poor old "corrupt & incompetent politicians" are hardly responsible for our (the mob?) preference to luxuriate in heretic/believer polemic instead of exploring opportunities & possibilities.
Current circumstances dictate that we need to change to a different set of circumstances. Engineers will, as alway, facilitate that with elegant/efficient solutions (hopefully).

...and the other thoughts along the same line

Frank C.

It’s not the technology that’s the real problem, but the number of people on this planet that use it.

I expect the price of second hand diesels and petrol cars will plummet towards 2030, but the fuel to keep them on the road will increase massively - by the government of the day to get them off the road.

So now the money raised in fuel tax will have gone, there will have to be a new tax (higher of course!) to replace it.

People don't like change and have to be forced into it sometimes. Life is different in 2020 compared with last year, however this electric vehicle situation will arrive eventually....

Good questions and answers from everyone on here. There have been similar articles in the magazine of the Institute of Engineering Technology and the big question is of course are we exchanging one form of pollution for another?

I don't know much about electric vehicles but rare earth magnets and other materials seem to be found in those Countries that could hold the world to ransom like the Middle East have done to inflate prices. What happens to the old batteries - I mean current mobile phone batteries are hopeless

I think "driverless" cars is the ultimate goal whatever the fuel. You don't need a car, you order one to arrive at a specific time and date and take you to "x" and then "y", like a taxi but better. No need to have a tin box on wheels spending the majority of its time not going anywhere....

Good discussion all round but lets not get personal eh guys?, we all have different opinions on stuff and this is no different...

Regards to all

Derek

Lots of interesting views, and some less than temperate comments, in this thread.

I wonder if the progress in driverless vehicles will change the way we think about personal transport in a few years time? If the car drives itself and needs no input from the owner will we really want to own our own car? I know many drivers take pride in their vehicle and their driving but will that be the same if the vehicle is autonomous? I accept that driverless vehicles are not perfect yet but progress is being made. Steets will be clearer of parked cars too, most cars spend most of their lives just sat around getting in the way

It could be more like an automated taxi service. "Call" one when you need to go out and it turns up at your door, "tell" it where you want to go and get out at the other end. Get out right in the City centre, not far away where you can park. No need to look for somewhere to park or to pay for doing so. No need to have a parking place at home or at work. Call another "taxi" for the trip home, or there could be automated taxi ranks in busy places. Run or walk when the weather is fine, get a taxi when it rains?

Most of the cost of present day taxi journeys are drivers' wages. Someone else can worry about upfront costs, fuel, battery, repairs and maintenance etc. Non- drivers, disabled people and anyone who no longer wants to drive due to age etc. can all use the same service.

Rod

Edited By Rod Renshaw on 19/11/2020 11:58:55

Wonder how many cell block shapes it will generate? Given the variations of shapes and sizes the existing car manufacturers use to ensure you replace with a "Branded" replacement and it won't be a Saturday afternoon two spanner changeover.

Regards Ian.

Kiwi Bloke asked the question about the Emergency Services.

Sorry sir I cannot get you out of your wrecked car until someone has made that 800V battery safe.

200 -> 800V DC has a strong bite

An interesting read with clearly very diverse opinions. Past experience of EVs seems a good deal less positive than all the marketing hype for them - but maybe newer versions are much improved.

I will admit to some bias here - having driven a 3 litre (petrol) V6 as my day-to-day car for thirteen years (and loved every trip). I purchased that car from new and was deeply sad to part with her. On a very long trip I was delighted to average 35mpg. But driving to Milan over the Alps is something that I can still recall with great joy.

My replacement car has a much smaller 1.4 litre turbo-charged engine, which even on short trips (just Click & Collect these days) is averaging 35mpg - and it will easily do 50mpg on longer trips cruising at 70mph. The range is well over 450 miles per fill-up. It's six years old now but in good condition and I've no plans to change her in the immediate future.

Sometime in the next nine years (all being well) I will probably purchase a new car. I have no idea what it will be, petrol, hybrid or electric. I will look at that time to see what is available and what seems to best fit my needs. Sadly (for me at least) I think it will be my last car.

So I'm not going to waste any time worrying about this at the moment - I think there are more serious threats to peoples lives at the moment. Personally, I think much of what I've seen pronounced by Government in terms of overall energy policy and the green agenda is mostly wishful thinking and doesn't seem to be backed up by any serious policy and planning work.

Regards,

IanT

pgk talks about a typical home car charging of 7kW which equates to around 30A (assuming 235V). I have off-peak storage heating which from memory can take about 80A if all the heaters are switched on. I also have a 100A main fuse, which rather begs the question of what would happen in my case? A glowing 100A fuse? Molten plastic under the fuse? Glowing feeder cables? It's somewhat worrying. Yes, I know the above is unlikely to happen, but serves to show how close I would be in this event.

I have other worries as well. I tow a caravan, and have done for 40 years. It's not a large caravan, and we manage quite well with a 7 year old 1.8ltr petrol estate car. We don't do much: indeed the furthest we go is about 215 miles, yet we still have to fill up with petrol to get there. What price battery power? Unfortunately I can see a future where travel such as we do simply won't happen, and the owner of the site we have used quite frequently going out of business after having spent many £thousands producing a small, but high quality site.

As it happens, it's very unlikely I'll still be around in 2030 (I like to think I'll be here, but realistically I doubt it), so it won't matter that much to me. But what about my children, my daughter especially? Following an accident where she fell off a horse and broke her back, she is now dependant on a wheelchair and a modified car. Ok she will be able to transfer to an electric vehicle, but then she will need charging facilities. Then there is my elder grandson who works as an agricultural contractor: how will he go on with an electric combine harvester - if such a thing can indeed be produced. Even what might be called bog-standard tractors are rather large vehicles. My second grandson is setting himself up as a self-employed engineering and fabricating contractor - recently he has been into Scotland and into West Yorkshire. Travelling is an essential part of his job.

What has been said is perfectly correct - our generation has probably had the best of it, but it doesn't make it anymore palatable. I remember when the annual holiday involved queuing for a coach to take us to the coast. Or travelling by train (steam at that) and then being stuck at our destination until hometime, although to be fair I don't remember any bad weather, perhaps I was too young. But do we really want to go back to those days? Perhaps we'll be forced into it.

All in all, I don't like what is happening. I resent the implications yet understand that with the current state of things, not necessarily just technology, there may well have to be changes. It does make me wonder if we might not have been better off restricting private/personal travel before it became popular.

Peter G. Shaw

Blimey, SOD, it's a long time since I've had to look up Schopenb100dyhauer, philosopher of pessimism, doomed to eternal obscurity.