How on earth do they calculate electricity and gas bills...

John, There is no crock of gold at the end of the rainbow, we are already paying for those Smart Meters AND I do not want nor need one.

Denmark went through the Smart metering exercise and a study when it was completed proved no benefit to consumers so conclusion was an expensive exercise paid for by consumers. The sinister element not explained is that the communication with the Smart meter is two way, this means that the energy supplier gets up to date information on usage but also the facility to change tariffs and charging rates without notification and they can selectively disconnect consumers when they want to balance demand, you the consumer get no say, definitely smacks of Big Brother and I am not paranoid but realistic.

Dave W

Michael G- That article on the coms' methods is very interesting, and a bit disturbing. I would have thought it would be easier and cheaper to improve the existing mobile network. Instead we will be paying for a " new" system used only by a few. Actually two new systems.

Neil.

Referring to your opening observation re. Direct Debits. Have a look at Bristol Energy. They have reviewed my DD's more than once a year : reducing or increasing as appropriate.

They also offer the option to pay in full each month. Providing a monthly reading gave me a zero balance each month. I reverted to DD because the pay in full system is only manual at present. The option to pay in full by variable DD is described as "we do hope to be able to offer variable DD ".

All the options are down to Customer choice and I intend to revert to full pay by variable DD when the option is made available. This will put my energy bills in line with my credit card as a "full payer".

Usual caveat: I post this only as a satisfied customer.

MK_Chris.

Hi Brian, sorry about your situation, in your case they're ok , don't know where you live but in North Yorkshire we get the meter man each 1/4 he leaves a card If wer'e not in & I phone the reading in, they like to take a reading once a year themselves so in my situation I don't need/want one

Graham.

Hi Brian, sorry about your situation, in your case they're ok , don't know where you live but in North Yorkshire we get the meter man each 1/4 he leaves a card If wer'e not in & I phone the reading in, they like to take a reading once a year themselves so in my situation I don't need/want one

Graham.

Oops came out in stereo !! Apologies

Graham

What utter garbage! They cannot change your tariff without notification as most are on term contracts, neither can they selectively disconnect consumers to balance demand as that would be highly dangerous and would most certainly lead to litigation.

No! You are not realistic but paranoid. Stop being so negative, if you don't want one don't have one.

I've always sent meter readings and then paid the quarterly bill.Far easier than direct debit in my opinion.

I've always sent meter readings and then paid the quarterly bill.Far easier than direct debit in my opinion.

I think that we are right to be cynical.

Utility companies must have been making a mint (until interest rates hit the floor) out of the credits built up from DD.

At one time, paying £80/m EoN told me that it would go to £106. Since I was already £364 in credit, I queried it was told that the following year we would use £1600, (we were then using less than £1200). I said "No, I'll stop the DD" "You can't do that" "You just watch!" and went straight tom the bank and cancelled.

After a year or so, phoned and said, "I'll go back on DD if you behave sensibly" Since then they have.

Now they want an appointment to fit a Smart meter. (That was a nearly two months ago.Hope they're not holding their breath. So that letter was obviously a come on. Am suspicious of the security.

In any case, the change is not for our benefit, I am sure; or that of the folk employed to read meters.

Wife looks after the utility bills at our holiday home. You would scarcely believe the problems in convincing them, despite meter readings that the DD did not need to match those of the former full time owners! Kept reverting to previous owner's levels, until we really had a go and threatened to move someone more sensible.

Witness the bank who wrote to a customer to tell them that "to improve our service to you; we are closing your local branch"

Imposing a 30 mile round trip is an improvement?

You bet I'm cynical. Its only the cynical who query "improvements" and changes for no obvious good reason that keep big companies anywhere even faintly near the straight and narrow.

Utility companies are on a par with politicians, banks, double glazing salesmen, secondhand car salesmen and estate agents, in my view.

The only people really interested in looking after your interests, live in your home.

Howard

I agree with AC reference Brian's difficulty, but there are always alternatives. Wheelchair users obviously need more help than most, but there are others with physical and mental impairments that may make meter readings a more difficult task. Alternatives might be to get assistance to read the meter (even if only three monthly), a camera to aid capture of images from awkward positions, contacting the supplier to

enlist extra assistance (if they are unhelpful, that is a prime reason to dump that supplier!). There are , doubtless, other options.

Got to disagree with Howi.

This is a two stage process:

• First, introduce the enabling technology
• Second, change the Terms and Conditions

You can already be disconnected if:

• You don't pay the bill
• the supply is affected by an emergency, or other circumstances, outside the control of the retailer or another person involved in the supply
• safety, maintenance or other technical reasons require it to be interrupted

Today, when the grid is overloaded, whole districts are disconnected. This is the crudest possible way of managing excessive demand.

In future overloads will be more likely than in the past. Like it or not the world is facing an energy crisis. Part of the answer is increased capacity, the other is to manage demand better. The good thing about smart meters is that they allow non-critical users to be disconnected selectively. It's a managed process - you could have an entire villiage disconnected apart from the one house with a dialysis machine.

Contracts aren't much protection; they can be changed. And, when you check the small print, they often disappoint. For example, if you buy a 1st Class Rail ticket with a reserved seat, there is no guarantee that the seat will be provided, or there will be a first-class carriage, or even that a train will turn up, let alone reach your destination.

Dave

I thoroughly believe people have got the wrong end of the stick here and are treating it like a binary choice.

I believe, no matter what the set backs or challenges are at the moment, that it is in the interest of the consumer, the companies and the government to provide as much choice as possible about how to pay their bill and manage their consumption.

People can still have a fixed tarrif if they want or a smart meter, the increase in flexibility and choices benefits the whole system when the customer is able to choose. I think the energy companies would be daft to not want that for the future. (Not to mention that they've already been told enough times they're being too uncompetitive)

Michael W

Why people put up with fixed and escalating direct debits that exist only to improve the cash flow of energy companies escapes me.

Each month we get an email requesting we submit a meter reading, it takes five minutes max to read and input the readings, then a few days later a pdf arrives with the bill, the money is taken two weeks later. Even better the supplier is one of the cheapest suppliers in the market (within 3% of the cheapest, with lower risk of collapse than the very cheapest)

As for remote switching to manage demand, there is far more scope for this in a commercial and industrial environment, a process that has been happening for half a century for major consumers like steelworks, and has existed for all those in the >100KVA market for 25 years. Delaying operation aircon or heating in a commercial environment to save thousands or tens of thousands in peak demand charges for a handful of days a year makes sense for an office block or a department store.

Disconnects of selected appliances 'over the internet' or with 'smart meter switching' to manage peak demand will not happen for UK domestic consumers. Unlike the Americans or Australians or Canadians we don't rely on aircon or resistive heating. Just do the maths and see what deferring the load of something like a fridge freezer that uses less than 1kWh per day has on the demand curve. Deferral of larger appliances such as an  oven would not be acceptable to many.

Peak pricing to try and encourage load deferral may happen in the UK but there is IMHO far more probability of zero or negative pricing with solar peaks.

Edited By Martin 100 on 23/12/2017 12:01:30

Hi Martin 100

I think you are dreaming to think of zero or negative pricing from supplier's under any conditions especially with the already agreed price of supply from nuclear plants.

Emgee

Negative pricing has already happened here several times, all it needs is a sunny day with a few gusts of wind.

It's quite common in Germany too

https://www.ft.com/content/5164675e-1e7e-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/germany-grids-paying-electricity-customers-renewable-energy-power-surplus-wind-solar-generation-a8022576.html

Hinkley Point C is priced at £92.50/MWh for delivery in 2025 (2012 cost basis) (currently £97.14)

Current year delivery offshore wind like Dudgeon Phase 3 is as high as £161.71/MWh

Future nuclear (Wylfa/Oldbury/Moorside) will be much nearer £60/MWh which is significantly closer to what is being delivered with new builds worldwide (EdF excepted)

There are also lots of ways HPC would have been delivered at significantly lower cost.

See Page 68 of the National Audit Office Report

Other than hydro for which the UK has very limited potential there is no other way to secure low carbon dispatchable generation.

None of that negative pricing seems to reach the domestic consumers so how and when will they benefit ?

Emgee

Thank you Dave(aka SOD) for explaining how disconnection works now and for the future, you did it better than I could. As you explained balancing supply to demand happens very crudely at the moment with whole areas disconnected when the need arises, in future the energy companies will selectively disconnect consumers using the functions of the smart meter and the system will have the degree of precision of enabling continuos supply to vulnerable consumers I.e. those with dialysis units etc.

Dave W

Smart meters help customers “manage their consumption”, really? So you think you’ll put they kettle on and make a nice cuppa then glance the smart meter and decide nope, I’ve used enough electricity today I’ll go without the tea. Or you’re happily watching a film on TV then halfway through decide, that’s enough, I’ll turn it off now. Really, is that how folks with smart meters live? I just turn stuff off when I’m not using it.