A model engineer gone wrong?

Thank you Chris, you have confirmed that not all guns exist solely for killing people, and the ones that do can't do it without a human being involved.

I shoot prone target rifle. My rifle is singe shot, one has to reload manually. As a weapon it is pretty useless and if I wanted to use it as a weapon, it would be much more useful as a club!

Gun nuts are thankfully few and far between. Anyone wishing to join a target shooting club, needs to serve a six month probationary period before being able to apply for a fire arms certificate. Virtually everyone who is a gun nut is weeded out at this stage and would not get the essential club backing for a fire arms application, All the clubs I have been associated with take this extremely seriously and there is NO appeal against the club's decision.

Any club member that begins to show abnormal behaviour is reported to the police, no ifs or buts. Dunblane happened because the police did not act on requests from the club to remove the guys FAC.

Prone target shooting is one of the safest sports in this country. The insurance rating for the activity, is that it is safer than playing a piano (That isn't a joke but fact!).

Firearms control in this country is one of the tightest in the world and I have no quibble with that. I would like to continue with the sport that I have done for 50 years. Banning firearms completely would not solve the criminal use of firearms. It would simply deprive those law abiding shooters of their sport.

Andrew.

The majority of the guns used in crimes in the UK are either smuggled from abroad or are retro-fits and Saturday night specials. So you're correct, banning them here would have zero impact on the ones who use them for crime.

With the right expertise it would prove utterly impossible to prevent a minded person to creating their own anyway, unless you want to start banning table salt.

Michael W

Excess table salt kills far more people every year than guns do - get it banned!

It's quite scary looking at causes of death.

The scariest thing is that the classification of deaths by coroners appears to be totally ad-hoc so it's impossible to make any real sense of the categories.

Over 10% of non-medical male deaths are intentional self harm or hanging/strangulation, a sad number which reflects on our society.

One definite statistic: 23% of avoidable deaths are cancers - check your moles! Test your testicles! Probe your prostate (or at least get the doctor to!)

Looking at external causes of death some are particularly unexpected. It seems that in 2011 305 people were killed by having their inquest adjourned...

15 people were killed by 'animate objects' - is this the rise of the killler robots?

But seriously, it's quite sobering reading such stats.

Here's a simplified and very sobering list you can simply filter by age and gender.

visual.ons.gov.uk/what-are-the-top-causes-of-death-by-age-and-gender/

Suicide is the main cause of death for men aged 20 - 50.

If anyone on this forum thinks their future is bleak, there's a brilliant charity called CALM, you might want to give them a call.

Neil

It's best to keep away from doctors, I didn't have high blood pressure until I had a work medical I didn't want. Apparently I have a 20% risk of stroke/heart attack, I prefer the 80% risk of not having one. They take your family history into account but that seems irrelevant to me, my father smoked 20 senior service a day and was a pilot and later an air traffic controller at Heathrow, I have never smoked and my colleagues comment on how cool I am even when a major production breakdown has 30 suits in attendance.

Mike

"If you can keep your head when all a round you are losing theirs - ask yourself, am I missing something?"

Neil

Actually I am pretty sure knives were equally up there with the intention of killing when invented, probably animals for food, and probably flint tied to a branch in it's very early stage of conception. As pointed out earlier although guns were undoubtedly invented to kill they have also become popular for sporting activities. I don't recall hearing or reading that any crime has been commited by way of a sporting target rifle being used, possibly because it would be virtually useless in such a scenario. Out of interest, I happen to own several bows, two or three of which would do far more harm to anything or anyone than any of my target air rifles, yet there are very little laws governing the buying and using of the bows and certainly no licensing. If all guns were banned maybe the odd lunatic who legally owns a gun would be filtered out, but the law abiding people would still be at risk from the criminals who have a tendancy to not register their weapon or apply for a licence.

I have found that panic doesn't fix anything but applying a logical fault finding process will. The people panicking are the ones who don't understand what is happening and don't have anything useful to contribute.

Mike

'twas humour Mike

£1200-500. Keep it in perspective - there is a quality difference between a good target pistol and a potentially use-once low-life weapon. I doubt the supply of criminal ammunition is a cheap commodity, mind.

But, yes, the availability of uncontrolled weapons and ammunition is rediculous. Law abiding citizens keep their guns and ammo locked away securely, whereas the criminals seem to often carry theirs around in their pockets.

While I might disagree with the way firearms can be owned in the US, theft (pikey style) is virtually nonexistent. I recall someone telling me they saw a notice at the entrance to a tractor dealership lot which read something like ' WARNING. If you are here at night you may still be here in the morning'. A simple warning that worked.

Back to the beginning (of the post). Model engineers manufacturing firearms etc. Evelyn Ernest Owen, the Australian who designed the Owen Gun ( a machine carbine) in World War II manufactured his first machine gun in his father's shed. Tools at his disposal: handtools and a drillpress - hand cranked from memory. It worked really well! I don't think model engineers need to worry about owning a lathe! Owning a hacksaw and a set of drill bits ...... well thats different!

That was not my experience at all. I had to go through probation, but in 1981 my first pistol cost me just over £200 and it was a 15-shot 9mm CZ75, regarded as one of the best battle pistols available. I kept it and its ammunition at home and it struck me as an enormous act of trust by society that I was permitted to do so. I gave up pistol shooting in 1989 and sold the 5 weapons I had by then.

Both Hungerford and Dunblane were perpetuated by licenced FAC holders who at some time or another had been regarded as trustworthy, and nobody really knows what it was that made that misplaced. It's perfectly true that both in the past and even now stable societies have existed where the risks associated with individual gun ownership are low - but it's also clear that something has gone wrong with the cohesion of individuals and society in many countries that has made this no longer the case.

It would certainly be better to address the social issues if anybody could find a way to do that - it's because those are controversial, obscure and political that the less-effective Plan B of prohibition always surfaces.

The Swiss States deem that every man upto about 75 keeps a rifle and ammunition at home in case of National emergencies! He will attend a shooting session perhaps twice a year. Gun crime is low in Switzerland. It's Citizens are trusted. I came out of the Hotel and stacked along the wall beside the entrance were automatic rifles and machine guns, while the soldiers were inside getting their breakfast including a liter of beer.

Every road and pass in Switzerland has defense points on bends and hills, rated for artillery and tanks.

The Governments that rule this country are fearful of a Citizen coup! they do not trust us at all. Whereas the criminals are happy to smuggle, rent or make weapons. A worthwhile pastime, shooting long range and Pistol shooting, with re-loading as well was all killed off by knee jerk reaction by the various Governments, no concessions at all except for Black Powder pistols! They seek all the time to restrain or ban any thing seen as a threat and do not trust gun owners yet the killings and robberies continue long after all legal guns are banned and removed. Shallow thinking does not enhance trust of the people in this way. Increase drastically the sentences, their excuse is that the prisons will become overcrowded and the Human Rights will step in. No, put them to work in a quarry breaking rocks on an island where it is cold and wet, allow them the minimum concessions, only then will I believe what they say!

As has been mentioned it is the authorities who are at fault creating implausible laws etc.Whereas the criminal has no limit and does not care. The Police cannot cope with the firearms data and there is NO National listing of firearms, It takes more than 6 months to get a renewal of a certificate as they now want Doctors to be involved, how many of you ever see the same Dr. ? In 17 years I have not seen the same Dr. In a controlled range environment I have introduced people to various forms of shooting and you soon learn what people are like. My whistle and stern telling off sorted many things out as a Training Officer. Range safety and Discipline are very important. It cost the Government Millions in compensation for guns and accessories and also Dealers obtained compensation for stocks running into millions as well. They will not give a figure as it would horrify you, that is for their own safety mind! Estmates were put at just under a Billion.

Golly gosh, am I in trouble?

Well they'll *probably* let the miquelet and wheel-locks go, but are those percussion revolvers repro or antique?

Look like they ain't got no nipples from 'ere.

I'm afraid the statistics don't support the belief that gun-crime hasn't fallen as a result of stronger gun control in the UK.

Even more worrying are the 2010/2011 figures for misappropriations. In that year 2534 firearms were misappropriated. Of those nearly half were taken from private owners. (1590 were taken from residential premises and 116 from private cars.) In comparison the military lost none and gun clubs 3. This suggests that private owners can't or don't secure their weapons, and by failing to do so put weapons into criminal hands. It also suggests that owning a gun does not protect you from thieves.

I'm not anti-gun on principle. What changed my mind was mainly the series of massacres of innocents here and abroad. I must also say that many of the ill-considered arguments made in favour of gun-freedom have reduced my confidence in hobbyists. Even worse, some pro-gun opinions are completely unacceptable. Imagine how painful it must be for a Sandy Hook parent to be told that their child's murder was either faked or a government plot intended to blacken gun owners? Imagine being a bereaved parent persecuted on social media by nutters like the Sandy Hook Truther Movement.

Sorry gun owners, but if you want to get my vote you have to explain how you will protect the rest of us.

Dave

If You think the sign that says,"You will be found in the morning" raises an eyebrow how about the one that says, "If You can read this sign You ARE in range!"

To highlight the massive differences in gun culture (and this is the truth) when visiting family in West Chester USA we went for a look at a new upmarket housing development. Being from the UK I was struck by the complete lack of boundry fences from one large house to another. Upon enquiring why there were non I was reminded that this area had an extremely low crime rate. I couldnt see the link ans was told very matter of fact that the lack of fencing enabled an almost uninterrupted line of fire. To them this was just plain common sense. I will stick to my fences , hedgerows and baseball bat thanks.