The true cost of Diesel?

This new Petrol engine may help given the chance.

**LINK**

Oil well supplies will run out, believe me. They aren't making any more. (The current stuff was produced millions of years ago). Electric from renewable energy (or at a push, non-carbon technologies) is the way forward. Petrol and diesel cars are both on the way out. No matter what either, or both, cost comparatively (which was rebutted very early on with this thread) or in any other way.

It has long been government policy to move industry and people to larger conurbations. Blame the government for short-sightedness, if anyone/anything, but please don't harp on about the fuel - it is the engine designs that are to blame, along with those that set out the rules for testing.

WOW, a Diesel engine running on petrol

Russell

Perhaps the sceptics out there who deny man's contribution to the rise in CO2 and thus global warming would like to explain the following graph, courtesy of NASA:

Russell

Hi , Not Done It Yet, all very well issuing decrees about future policy , I.e. Everything will be electric, but the reality is that the technology doesn't yet exist to permit long durations without recharge, this will affect long journeys and the extended working day of delivery vans and lorries, also the huge amount of electricity that will be required for the recharges has to come from somewhere, we definitely do not have plans in place for that provision. I am of the opinion that politicians of the present are making pledges and commitments that they will themselves not have to honour because they will be long gone from office but they look as saviours to the present electorate, or am I too cynical in my outlook?

Dave

No, it’s a combined spark and compression ignition Petrol engine. No Diesel fuel used at all.

No, I don't think so. These "plans" seem to me to be nothing more than an airy fairy arm wave. A wholesale change to electric traction will require a massive infrastructure investment that only governments can finance and the current political climate does not seem favourable to the tax hikes that would require - and that's not even considering the resistance of powerful lobbies such as the petrochemical industry.

Rod

but the reality is that the technology doesn't yet exist to permit long durations without recharge,

Wrong again, I afraid! It does exist. The French have recently demonstrated an 'on-the-go' charging system that can supply an electric vehicle with 20kW. Suffient for a reasonably sized car to travel at the speed limit.

Installed on through routes/trunk roads/motorways it may well offer the long distance traveller to travel considerable distances without needing to recharge at a static charging point.

Perhaps not yet developed to commercial reality, but simply a practical demonstration track to show it can be achieved. I expect they will develop it further as time goes by. Look it up, if interested. Fully Charged has it on video.

but the reality is that the technology doesn't yet exist to permit long durations without recharge,

Too true! Say I want to visit my cousin in Melbourne, more than half way across Oz. From Perth to Norseman, no problem ( if there were recharging stations ) as there is a maximum of 100 km between them. From Norseman eastwards along the Eyre Highway, they are usually about 300 km apart, with nothing between them.until well into South OZ. It takes almost 2 days driving just to get out of Western Oz.

Even with the best electric car, assuming I could recharge at every fuel stop it would take at least a week to get to Melbourne instead of 3+ days due to charging times.

I have recently downsized cars and there is no way I would drive the Suzuki Celerio across Oz. I do love the fuel economy, 18 km/litre compared to the 6 of the Nissan Patrol on LPG or the 7 of the Holden Rodeo. The air con is much better than the older vehicles as well.

In Europe/UK, electric is the way to go, here we have too much distance. I live 5 km from the closest shops.

Alan

Hi, Not Done It Yet, the French may well have demonstrated that it is theoretically possible to travel long distances with " on the go " charging but can you really believe that it will become a reality in this country by 2040. The cost of infrastructure and new technology would bankrupt this country if we were even in a solvent state, but we are technically bankrupt now, we cannot afford even basic refurbishment of our worn out highways, our roads infrastructure let alone other areas of our country are little better now than the third world countries. A much saner proposal would be to phase over to hybrid vehicles, not ideal from the pollution aspect but certainly achievable financially. I reiterate my thought that the politicians in power now are promising the unattainable in order to secure our admiration and praise at how clever they appear to be. It is pie in the sky and only time will resolve who is right with their opinions. Dave

Strictly speaking Diesel is an engine with compression ignition triggered by the injection of fuel. 'Diesel' fuel can be oil, flour, coal dust, virtually anything...

Only one problem there: what happens when you are parked up in a traffic jam on the motorway with stop-go for 15 miles or more and you are low on battery power?

Dave
The Emerald Isle

I seem to remember a while back cars being converted to Lpg. Though lately it does not seem to be prominent any more. Perhaps this might be more viable in the long term?

Clive

Chaps,

No good hoping that nothing will change because it will be difficult to manage with electric cars. There isn't a choice between electric and oil, at the moment the only alternative to IC, good or bad, is electric.

Problem One is health damaging pollution and Global Warming. Let's ignore them by pretending that both those are a tax raising conspiracy designed by 'them' to worry and annoy us.

Problem Two is much harder to dismiss. Oil is going to run out and once it's gone it's gone. Peak Oil occurs when no new oil fields are discovered, and when recovery technologies like fracking, can't get more out of the ground.

Unless some massive new oil field is discovered, Peak oil will occur between 2006 and 2020. Note that it may have already happened. Meanwhile, demand for oil continues to rise across the world. As soon as demand for oil exceeds what can be extracted prices will rise sharply. Market forces will overwhelm technology and politics in short order. I think the cost of fuel will price most people out of motoring over the next 30 years.

Our best chance is that electric vehicles improve. Even so, it's difficult to see how a permanent oil shortage won't cause dramatic lifestyle changes for everybody apart from the super-rich.

Dave

Haven't heard much about hydrogen recently

Maybe it'll explode into the market at some point

Both petrol and diesel engines will run a number of alternative fuels. Diesels were designed to run on peanut oil and will run on virtually any oil including used engine oil. Petrol engines will run on any combustible gas and liquids, including alcohol and hydrogen. When it runs on hydrogen it has no exhaust gas other than steam.

Alan you say that "I live 5 km from the closest shops" - not just in OZ then !

The nearest fuel ( and shops) to me is 10km away and I live in a rural , but by no means remote, part of Devon.

The greatest problem I can see with recharging is that the power infrastructure in general, and particularly in rural areas, is unlikely to be able to support the kind of demand made by recharging vehicle batteries. It's not just the requirement for building additional power stations but also the need to augment the whole of the distribution network.

Norman

Steamdave,

You might have forgotten that leccy cars can use zero power at standstill. If they can charge at 20kW while traveling at 70mph, I'm sure they can charge at 10mph, or even stationary.

Do think before being so negative!

Samsaranda,

I didn't mention any timescale. All I said was basically oil is a finite resource - it WILL run out, sooner or later. By then there may be other means of cheaper transport.

A dedicated lane on a motorway for all suitable vehicles, kept in lane and a fair distance apart, at high constant speed is a future possibility. Danes or Swedes were testing overhead pick ups for trucks on one section of road andwe already have pilot schemes for one truck driver and a couple of slave vehicles following behind.

Developments are taking place in many places over a range of future possible options.

One thought was that the next oil, produced by the planet, might be derived from the human race and its herds of animals! Although I doubt there would be sufficient numbers dying only in one area to make any appreciable amount of oil in 100 million years time! (No oil from the dinosaur extinction as far as I know) And the human race will have deserted the planet long begore then!

There is always the promise of boundless electricity generation from nuclear fusion reactors. Of course, that dream might come to reality in the next few decades.....Flying pigs and cows jumping over the moon on past promises, but they are getting nearer with developments, and have run a reactor for a finite time while actually producing more energy than it consumes, so progress is taking place.

Still makes no odds on the cost of a litre of petrol or diesel, mind...

I am convinced that the sole future energy source for mankind will be from that big golden ball in the sky. Solar panels are just our first crude attempt at harnessing this free energy. Watch this space - you ain't seen nothing yet!

Rik

So can IC engines, but electric cars only use zero power at standstill if you switch them off! They still use power for heating/cooling, radio and lights.