Aircraft General Discussion

I would still like to know why he had his flaps down at the top of the loop.

Clive

Many different types of accelerant have been tried for ejection seats. However, as far as I am aware the older RAF seats used solid propellant, which was essentially uncontrolled and could create very large accelerations. The result was that the pilot might survive, but possibly with severe back injuries. More modern seats use rocket motors that have a controlled burn, so presumably the acceleration can be tuned to get the seat out PDQ while not exceeding the maximum spinal loading. Presumably the more controlled burn of a rocket motor also helps make the seat zero-zero.

To my surprise I did fly yesterday. It was 'orrible! The highest we got was 900 feet, and we flew back to the airfield in heavy rain and very poor visibility at (redacted) feet. Let's just say we were going round, not over, the wind turbines. The instructor reckoned that since I wasn't fazed by the condtions, and was able to hold the headings he was giving me from the NDB, there wasn't much wrong with my flying. So that's everything signed up for another two years.

Andrew

May be worth a read **LINK** as it covers the issues of spinal injury and the ways they try to limit the problem by a two stage acceleration.

I think the still fire the seat out of the aircraft with an explosive and rockets taking over to get the necessary height at low altitude to allow a safe deployment of the chute. Never mind underwater!

Bob

I remember seeing a TV program about the chap who actually tested the seats, can't remember the name. He got some pretty horrific injuries just doing the job, displaced organs etc., but reckoned to recover after a few weeks.

Ian A & Bob B - it is usually regarded as 'tasteless' to criticise people in that way. However, it is also possible to become rather 'star-struck' over the displays performed at airshows. It is a fact that the loss of life of the public is (thankfully) minimal, however the participants dispose of themselves quite regularly. I suspect that the author of that vituperative piece is as aware of the problems as I am and, while undoubtedly OTT, it reflects concern not spite. Pilots operate in the Bell Curve world just as any other profession. Not all doctors, lawyers, whatever professionals are at the 100% level all the time. If you have an interest in such matters the following gives a remarkably full insight into the problem and is used as a prime case study. **LINK**

My predecessor at my second S&R flight posting was a victim of a similar 'expert' whose exploits were known about but not reported or constrained. I had to recover his personal effects from the crash site and it does tend to concentrate the mind and make one regard these events in a 'different' light.

rgds

Bill

My opinion is that it is unwise to be that critical in these situations when the full facts are unknown and to criticise someone who is unknown by the hat he wears or his haircut is plain stupid. All sorts of speculation and with out the full story it is totally wrong to assume at this point that it was pilot error

Bob

​Please note that I am completely out of my depth here.

Whilst searching for pictures of the Loughborough drop-test rig that I mentioned earlier: I happened across this report on a previous Hunter accident. ... Those with the appropriate technical background may find it of interest.

MichaelG.

Clive - you may find this informative

**LINK** #48 and #51

rgds

Bill

And finally ... just to put it back into perspective and to offer an alternative venue if the 'knee-jerkers' have their way - **LINK**

... not just 'piston heaven', but super photography and joy o joy o joy!! NO so-called background music nor a mind numbing blabbermouth 'explaining' what you can perfectly well see!!

For the modelling interest, La Ferte Alais also hold a large annual model aircraft meeting as well. Vive La France!!

rgds

Bill

Simply put. Had you heard of this blow hard before today ?

No and chances are you will never hear from him again. It's just one man's way of trying to grab some limelight at the expense of others.

Emphasised by having to have a dig at his hairstyle and the hat he wears. Well the unfortunate pilot in this case has far more notches on his belt than Flying Officer Kite. Makes one wonder if FO Kite was turned down for the lucrative private market hence the axe to grind over an issue that cannot be settled for many months until all the evidence is in hand.

Did anyone else take in and Andy Hill's wife is also a serving BA pilot ?

I think what got to me most, was that Andy Hill's family might read Flying Officer Kite's tirade. Haven't they got enough misery right now, without some bastard trying to make themselves sound impressive.

Yes, did notice that his wife is a BA pilot. The family bios were plastered on the tabloids practically before the aircraft stopped.

Ian

Indeed, a very interesting read. It highlights that while ex-military piston engine aircraft are similar to normal piston engine aircraft, albeit with with a lot more power and weight, ex-military jets are in a different league in terms of system complexity and flight characteristics. The RAF guidance was that you should be at least 7000 feet over the airfield in order to carry out an engine out force landing.

Some years ago at the gliding club we had an informal lecture from a test pilot who lived nearby. He had flown the space shuttle training aircraft while in the US, which he said was like nothing else. In order to simulate the space shuttle the descent was flown with the engines in reverse thrust, giving a descent rate of about 10,000 feet/min.

Andrew

> The RAF guidance was that you should be at least 7000 feet over the airfield in order to carry out an engine out force landing.

Yes, an interesting read.

I don't suppose you get a lot of choice in the altitude department when you flame out... although I imagine that means 'if under 7000 feet start thinking about pointing the plane at empty countryside and ejection.'

Many years ago I read Doddy Hay's autobiography "The Man in the Hot Seat". Hay was one of the first "test pilots" employed by Martin Baker to test the early ejector seats. An interesting read, if you can find a copy.

Andrew, an interesting report on the F-4 Hunter crash. I wonder how many hours the RAF pilots did on conversion to type for the Hunter, it would be more than 8, the number of hours that pilot had on type (10,000hrs + total). Ian S C

Andrew, an interesting report on the F-4 Hunter crash. I wonder how many hours the RAF pilots did on conversion to type for the Hunter, it would be more than 8, the number of hours that pilot had on type (10,000hrs + total).

A bit of ejection seat history. Bernard Lynch of the Martin Baker Co. ejected from the rear cockpit of a modified Meteor 3 at 320mph at 8000ft on the 24th July 1946, He made 30 more ejections.

The first emergency ejection from a British aircraft was in 1949 from a Armstrong Whitworth AW 52, an experimental jet powered flying wing, the pilot was Joe Lancaster (according to the web, he's still alive).

Ian S C

Sorry to be a bore, but I have answered my own question re Concorde U/carriage. Following link.

**LINK**

BobH

I read the report that Andrew sourced - seems like a lot of similarities with the Shoreham incident from the little I know about it. That engine sounds like a bit of a nightmare, prefer things that go "blow-suck-squeeze-bang" myself.

F.O.Kite proved yet again that it is best to have the all facts before one mouths off - and as we don't have all the facts yet keeping quiet would be the best course to take. Regrettably, he didn't.

Chris

I have only seen one crash and that was at a local show in the mid 50s. A Provost trainer was being put through its paces by an experienced naval pilot . As it pulled out of a loop, directly opposite and facing us on the other side of the runway it seemed about 50-100 ft up when the plane dropped like a stone. There was a large fireball and the wings broke off, cart wheeling across the runway. It is still remains a vivid memory for me today. If I remember correctly, the cause was later attributed to downdraft