Warco Super - Major Vario inaccuracy

Thanks for that Martin, too much reliance on my Firefox checker on my part. What on earth does SCAYT mean?

<didn't tell me how to drive it either>

Well as I said John I am not the sharpest tool in my box but ...

I don't want the manual to tell me how to turn or mill (that is why I buy MEW <s> but when I failed to start my lathe I thought I would go through the circuit diagram for clues. No help there as nothing was labelled beyond circuit IDs. It perhaps would have been more helpful to have left the circuit diagram out.

Which is what they did in the mill manual as there isn't a circuit diagram in there. To offset this though they include a picture of a different model mill for some reason.

I am perfectly happy with the lathe and mill though.

But to tell you non-standard things would be helpful, such as any interlocks etc. My car manual does tell me that to start the car I have to press & hold the clutch in before it will allow it, my previous cars did not have this feature.

Out of interest what did stop you starting the mill?

Having the spindle cover open a nat's whisker. It was only when going through the items with the Warco help-line and he said, 'yes but have you pushed it shut?'. I tried again, it moved a whisker and the mill sprang into life.

Bob,

I have to admit that the Chinese manuals for all machines are very much crap, to put it politely.

However, what incentive do I have to make a manual for price sensitive machines with low margins when every man and his dog sells the same machines?.

Here is a good example: Grizzlys market size for SX3 means he will import say 400pcs in one batch. He has the holding capacity and market for it. It would take all the distributors in Europe to buy this quantity in one batch, Axminster included!!.

What happens is YOU the customer wants the lowest price, in a small market. Where is the economic sense?. Most of you - especially the beginner who does not know us from Adam cannot make a decision on service, preferring to concentrate on price. Once purchased, the manual will be ripped off from Grizzly, and preparation guide from ARC. This is not a problem as far as I am concerned. This is just an observation.

Having said this, we still service and supply customers who have purchased such machines. Good manuals cost good money and time. Once published, everyone around the world tries to knick it.

We produced a fantastic manual for the KX1/KX3 CNC machines for SIEG. Over the past two years we have had to threaten three companies with legal action for trying to rip it off, and one company has been taken to court in China. ARC does not have unique machines that it can invest time and effort in trying to take legal action against competitors around the world.

If this was the case, ARC would be the first one in a queue of traders who would consider taking legal action against certain exhibition organisers for failing to observe verbal agreements. Just because we do not say anything does not mean that we do not talk to each other.

Chris Moore - Myford and his family invested a lot of time and money in their business. Look where it got them. What loyalty did they get in this time of recession?

We the importers do our own thing, and we appreciate all the business we get. Although your gripe is well placed, I hope you will understand at least my reason for failing to rise up to your expectations. Please accept my apologies.

Ketan at ARC.

Hi DerryUK,

are you serious?

Spell Checking As You Type -SCAYT.

Regards

T

SCAT

Spellun Crap All Times

Joey

<However, what incentive do I have to make a manual for price sensitive machines with low margins when every man and his dog sells the same machines?>
There has to be a reason to buy from you Ketan rather than someone else. Perhaps one reason might be your reputation for selling machines with decent manuals.

People buy things for many reasons including but not only price.

<Good manuals cost good money and time. Once published, everyone around the world tries to knick it.>
But you are not in the buisiness of selling manuals so if they knick it there is no cost to you directly. Look at what is published on the web for gratis. A lot of rubbish agreed but here is some marvelous stuff out there. Look at the offers of help for free that readers give ME and MEW here for instance.

I suspect that it would be the same for you if you wanted help producing manuals. Perhaps you only need reviewers?

<What loyalty did they get in this time of recession?>
Myford were too expensive for me to buy new.

Grizzlys have a good reputation for manuals, if you sell the same machine why not do a deal with them and include their manual with your machine.

Hi DerryUK,

I respect your comments, but dont totally agree with you

The situation is not as simple and clear cut as you think.

Agreed, there are people who buy based on a suppliers reputation. In the present economic climate, there are far more people out there making a purchase decision on price. I dont disagree with that. That is just the way it is. It is a clear observation. Also, the buyers who are new to the hobby don’t necessarily seek advice before buying. Trust me, I know. So how would they know about a suppliers reputation? For example, many of them don’t know the difference from one mini-lathe to another. Also, with the amount of marketing BS out there, it is very easy to baffle them. I won’t go into detail because my views will be different from my competitors.

ARCs reputation speaks for itself - whichever way you cut it. Where we lack on manual, we make up in other ways. I just cannot justify investing in the cost to make a manual for a low cost product with limited sales in an already over competitive market. I say this with the greatest of respect.

Yes there is help on offer, but writing a manual is not as easy as you think. We try to help instead by writing on forums, and making preparation guides when possible. For us this method is more cost effective for low value products.

The Myford story is more complicated then I care to explain, especially from a commercial view.

Making a deal with Grizzly is not as easy or viable as you seem to think. There is a company which did go down this route, and let us just say that it did not work out. I am not at liberty to go into details.

All of what you say is so easy to say, and more difficult to implement in this world, even though I agree that Grizzly's manuals are great.

Ketan at ARC.

I must be a dozy bugger - I thought my C6 manual was pretty good and I can source all the spares by reference to it from Arc.

It describes setting up the machine in a straightforward way that a novice can understand.

What's not in it that I should be complaining about?

Steve

Steve,

It's a two way street. some of the armchair lawyers on here are just too ready to keep banging the "Fit for purpose" drum but no one ever asks if the user is "Fit for purpose".

I have met plenty that I wouln't trust with a stick of licorice.

In your case Steve, rush out into the workshop and make up a big badge saying "Fit for purpose " and wear it with pride.

John S.

Hi Steve,

Some SIEG manuals are better then others.

This thread started off about a WM14 (SIEG does not manufacture this machine), and progressed onto general expectations of machine manuals for cheap machines, in a small but extreamly competitive market. The suggestions are sound, but I was making a commercial case for why it was difficult to consider.

Its so funny. At the engineering shows, a good majority of potential buyers who are new and do not know us, try to play one seller off against another (which is understandable)...bottom line being 'what will it cost'?...not....Is your manual better then his?, if so, I will buy it from you....

At the last Harrogate Show, there were four sellers selling the WM14 (not ARC). Can you guess who fought and got most of the orders? I will give you a few clues: it wasnt the one with the best manual!..it wasnt the one supplying the WM14 with the better electronics circuit...it want even the one who had good service and spares back-up. There are at least three assemblers making and selling the WM14, all based in the same town, making the same thing to three different specs. The original joint veture operator maker was Optimum, and guess whos copy manual goes out with all clones of the WM14 if they can get away with it?

Under such a competitive climate, it definately makes it more difficult for Roger at WARCO to promote the WM14 to new people entering the hobby, especially as they dont know WARCO from others. So, what insentive does he have to make a better manual then the others?

Bring in the mini-lathes into the story, there were at least eight versions available at the show, along with the marketing crap which goes with it. ARC only managed to sell the C3s and SC3s to buyers who knew of us, or were recommended by others to us, or to people who had seen our prep.guides. We did not sell any to new people who did not know us, especailly because these new people chose to believe what they were told by certain competitors rightly or wrongly, over what we said. Non of them asked us "Oh what is the quality of your manual like" .

Ketan at ARC.

How about making the manuals open-source? Then all the users can contribute to them as they learn the niceties of the machines. There's no great incntive for Ketan to produce a good manual, but plenty for the users or prospective users.

You make an interesting suggestion John H. We will keep it in mind.

Ketan at ARC.

There's nothing stopping any competent owners or other knowledgeable people putting their own operators manual together and making it available to the rest of the community - why not do that?

Martin.

Because then they wouldn't have anything to moan and bitch about.

Plus the fact that 7 people would write the first chapter 8 different ways.

Hi Geof, & all

Fortunate enough to see this write up,having just received my WM16 2 weeks ago I was wondering about checking quill set up & trammeling the head so the comments are very informative.I have not put it in its final place as have yet to get my WM 250V-F delivered & placed,hopefully early next week so have not done anything with it other than remove from packaging & put onto its stand.I have tested it out as far as motor running & speed range & all seem ok..so far.

Did receive my WM250V-F at the same time but on checking there was a major fault with the assembly (turned out to be manufacturing fault) so a phone call to Warco with an explanation (long story..& photos!) has resulted in Warco sending me a replacement from their next batch, due in this week.I must add that Warco after sales have been very apologetic & have taken on board my comments from an e-mail I sent stating my concerns & initial disappointment of the quality of the lathe, having commented that this is the first time this type of defect has been encountered Warco are reassuring me that a thorough pre-delivery inspection will be carried out on the replacement.Will keep you all posted.

Cheers

George

Oooops ..Should read 'tramming'..I think, grey matter's a bit slow today!

G

What about having a wikipedia style website for manuals?

Neil

Edited By V8Eng on 28/07/2012 21:56:43

Almost missed this thread.

I must say that I agree 100% on what Mr. Ketan says. I have seen it on very many products, some of them industrial. Somehow majority of people find it very much easier compare prices only instead of usability.

Then again it is really hard to make descision based on specs only, because quoted figures are not very useful or they are oprimistic. Some companies makes it easier to compare producs than others.

Pekka