Beware Bought Lathe tools.

Hi All,

This is a posting more for the beginner than the experienced modeller/turner.

I need to turn a Whitworth thread and this requires a 55º included angle lathe tool. As I lost my collection in a fire I decided against trying to grind up an HSS one as the job is a one off and my tool grinding rest is non operational at the moment. So I decided to buy one and ordered a 55º brazed tip tool from a major supplier.

I immediately recognised that it was not the correct 55º angle as soon as I saw it, and on measuring it is actually 82º .  I might not have noticed it in my excitement if I were a beginner and could have ruined a job on which I already have invested considerable turning time .

Obviously the supplier will replace it but it is an inconvenience and fortunately me and them are going to the same Midlands show this weekend, but it has cost me several days and I don't want to remove the job from the lathe if I can help it as concentricity is important in this particular job.

Here is a scan of the tool and a setting gauge to show the problem and act as a warning to always check that you have received the correct item when ordering remotely.

.

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 13/10/2012 12:44:02

Sorry about that Terry, even if it was the correct angle, even one of my home made ones would not be that rough, do you mean to say they where trying to sell that thing? Ian S C

What a terrible looking object, tool is too good a word .Perhaps you should have it carbon dated?

That is poor....you going to name and shame?

Paul

Hi Ian,

Yes unfortunately it is for sale. The company is well known and I trust that they will exchange it, but that's hardly the point (pun not intended!). Surely there should be some sort of basic quality control, surely whoever picked and packed it could have noticed. It was not expensive, but not super cheap either. Oh well another sign of deteriorating standards in this demand/supply profit driven environment. I can't afford to pay top price for industrial quality tools for a personal 'one off' but there appears to be a very limited 'middle of the road'.. Back to the grindstone - literally.

Regards

Terry

I'm a bit equivocal on this, these tools are bought in in bulk by all the major home hobby suppliers so I suppose it depends on their response and answers to my queries. I will be seeing them at the Midland.

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 13/10/2012 15:11:49

It is without doubt that quality control is all but non existant with some tool suppliers. I have received sets of three taps that were all of different makes and also drills that were negative rake. Also in a set of center drills found a left hand one. That may have been from selection in the shop !

There again quality control is still valid on selection of items for sale.

In fact the manufacture of some tooling is quite amateurish and it shows as they try to polish out faults !

The quicker this stuff is thrown back at them the better.

Clive

Terry,

If that's the quality of construction ... one has to wonder also about the materials !!

I understand your reluctance to name a specific supplier, because the problem is common across the trade; but it would be interesting to know (a) what they charged for this abomination, and (b) its manufacturer.

Elsewhere on this forum; Ketan has assured us that the quality of the Chinese machine tools has improved greatly over recent years [thanks largely to his own input, I suspect]. ... But there are evidently serious problems elsewhere in the chain.

There is no doubt that the Chinese can and do make exquisite things [Apple computers being just one example] ... So the problem is of our own making:

It is the clear responsibility of the UK importers and distributors to prevent "tools" like this reaching the market. They can do this by actively specifying what they wish to buy, instead of simply taking the cheapest available.

MichaelG.

As John Ruskin put it:

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man can't make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/10/2012 08:06:58

Before anyone grumbles about the reference to Apple

Just have a look at the internal build-quality of the original iPad.

MichaelG.

A quick look around the usual suspects and it would seen the cutter cost £3.17 but go to another supplier of better quality tooling and you will be looking at £11.97 assuming both are 3/8 - 10mm thats almost four times the cost

Its just the usual that you get what you pay for, if things are made to a price you won't get top quality at bargain basement prices.

Maybe the thread should be retitled "beware of cheaply bought lathe tools"

J

Hi Jason,

I tried to make the point, acknowledging that the tool was inexpensive at £4.22 (inc) but for a one off, on my limited budget I cannot justify spending £12.00 (+VAT?). A median priced product would just about be acceptable but there appears to be no alternative.

I fully understand that top quality tools are expensive and in my career used Vallorbe, Mititoyu, Moore and Wright etc, the list is endless. However now retired I have to watch my pennies and must compromise. I would love to be able to kit out my workshop with the very best but will have to wait for the lottery to come up. I can buy a set of say 6 Vallorbe files for around £60 but have to settle for much more inexpensive kit. It will probably cost as much in th elong run but t least I can spread the load. Also I'm not producing stuff for sale, just for personal satisfaction and as presents and the cost of materials is escalating all the time, but not my pension.

Despite the apparent poor quality of this particular tool I'm not bothered about the appalling rough ground shank but I would have hoped that it is just as easy to grind the cutting edge to 55º as it is to grind 82º. I cannot forsee needing to use it again but would keep it just in case even though I consider it to be disposable.

Regards

Terry

Every brazed tip tool that i have brought has required to be sharpened. This included a multi tip face milling cutter that came with a second hand mill, The first owner had tried the cutter and saild it was hopeless, i sharpened all the tips and find it cuts OK.

So my point is even if you ordered a 55 deqree point tool, i would not expect to use it without a touch up on the grinding wheel.

I know that this means they can supply the same tool what ever the angle you ordered.!!!

This only applies to brazed tip tooling tooling, HSS tooling i find if better finished.

HI Michael

The Sale of Goods Act - designed to proect consumers from unsafe and/or shoddy goods states among other things,

Goods should be as described.

If a tool is described as 55º that is what it should be, not 55.5 or 49.5, certasinly not 82º and there is no reason or difficulty why that cannot be done. By accepting shoddy goods and modifying ourselves we are encouraging manufacturers and suppliers that it is acceptable. Besides, many of us don't have the facilities or skill to grind brazed tip tools especially to accurate angles.

My original post was aimed at neophytes who just buy a tool and expect it to do a job. By accepting poor standards we are doing no one a favour.

Regards

Terry

I fully agree with Michael.

I use some brazed tipped tools on a couple of jobs where inserted tooling isn't suitable because of bulk.

I pay a lot more than £5 or £6 per tool but they still come semi finished, a quick lick on the diamond wheel soon gets them nice and sharp.

Jason is also correct in that you only get what you pay for.

Anyway I can't see much wrong with this threading tool other than a quick lick, if you are threading PG fittings even the angle is pretty good as they are 80 degrees

John S.

It would only have taken 5 minutes or so to have ground an HSS tool to 55 degrees, you've got a tool angle gauge, it would have been a far better job than buying that rubbish that you did buy, and wouldn't have cost you anything.

Richard.

The first thread cutting tool I had was made from a bit of a square file, it worked quite well, its still in the lathe tool draw. I'v never used a carbide thread tool, and can't see a reason that I would require one. Ian S C

Hello all,

Lets suppose I want to buy a car.
Either a Mercedes or a Mini. The Mercedes price is 100 and the Mini price is 50. Both are cars.
I chose the Mini, pay 50 for it and when it arrives at my door I find it has some scratches and a wheel is twisted.
Then I reclaim about the defects and the seller (or someone in his place...) tells me: you should have bought the Mercedes (or, in other words: you only get what you pay for...).

Strange, but somehow understandable, philosophy...

Best regards
Dias Costa

Edited By dcosta on 14/10/2012 12:18:00

This tool doesn't need to be "touched up" as some people quote, it's a complete regrind if you have a Silicon carbide or diamond whel to hand. I'ts also irrelevant if some of you guys can grind a screw cutting tool in 5 minutes, a lot of people can't!

As has been said before I really don't think in some far eastern factories quality control exists, perhaps just a printer knocking out inspection certificates to assure us the tools we buy are within specification.

Tony

Unless you are on CNC or have Grahams quick release clutch I can't see any reason to use carbide on a manual lathe for threading.

Carbide is very fragile, it's only a powder after all and unless run at the correct feeds and speeds it won't perform correctly.

As you have no control over feed, that's determined by the pitch, all you can play with is speed but as that's linked at a far higher rate that you can work the reverse or half nuts it's a waste of time and money given you will chip more tools that using HSS which operates at a far lower range.

As Terry pointed out to start with it is the unsuspecting beginners that get ripped off. And this rubbish is going around third world countries where it might have been a days wages to a small jobbing repair shop.

Then on top it is damaging our balanceof payments and national debt to be importing rubbish. Even worse is all the shoddy toys and everyday objects our low income families and pensioners get foisted on them.

The way 'quality control' works is more obvious with electronics resistors. A 10% tolerance resistor is cheaper than a 5% tolerance one. This does not mean they make a special batch of cheap resistors. They make them all the same, test them, and the ones that don't meet 5% are sold as 10%. That means a 10% resistor is not somewhere between 0 & 10% it is guaranteed to be worse than 5% off value. There are then shiesters who buy up the 10% and retest them. Any that meet 6% they sell off as 5% to less careful manufacturers.