Tool and Cutter Grinder

At last I have acquired a mini-mill where I previously was limited to a veritcal milling slide in my lathe.

I would like to make a tool and Cutter Grinder set-up.

I have detailed plans for the following:

1. Bonelle Tool and Cutter grinder (Freeware)
2. Raymac (Model Engineer's Workshop)
3. Harold Hall's Cutter and Grinder table plans in Workshop series books.
4. I can buy the Tinker plans, but I am not convinced it is better than the first three mentioned.

I like the simplicity of Mr Hall's set-up. I can very easy adapt an existing bench grinder or build a new one to suit my needs. The Raymac is also allowing me to use an existing grinders or my own. The same with the Tinker. I am a bit scared of the Bonelle as it is rather a lart and I don't have a users manual to read first.

What would you advised me to do?

It appears to me that the answer is in Mr Hall's set-up or the Raymac or both. Why is Mr Hall using his own design if he can very easily make an advanced cutter grinder with his experience. If his own design works for him, it must work for me, a person with less experience. I will also soon have my own metal casting set-up so then I can make more advanced projects. although I prefer to work without castings.

Regards

Johan

I have looked at this and decided on Harolds version.

I like the updated version with magnetic bases.

Good choice. It worked for me.

Russell

Unless your into building workshop equipment rather than models, I would not go down the route of anything sophisticated.

You can't go wrong with Harold's solution, simple, easy to build, quick and economical.

Nigel

Johan

My view is that the more "advanced" tool and cutter grinder designs are not cheap to build and, for their cost, you could buy a lot of cutters! Harolds design appears to offer basic facilities at an affordable cost and will , no doubt, also provide some interesting construction. On the other hand I'm about 70% + of the way through building a Stent which is an interesting experience but is unlikely ever to recoup its capital cost.! However for me the making is more important than the using so I enjoy the exercise.

Cheers

Norman

Hi Johan,
This subject has been discussed in This thread.

Les.

I'm just starting the HH type rest or was until my Alpine vertical Mill/Drill spindle bearing decided to collapse on me, wouldn't have minded but I was on the final cut on one of the 50mm blocks used

oh well need to strip it and get some new bearings - wasn't in a hurry anyway

Hi Les

That's quite interesting - now you mention it I do remember that thread - from 3 years ago! I guess that is the problem with this site - threads get started, peter out and get forgotten. then someone new asks a question and the whole thing gets revisited and often the same comments are regurgitated. I don't see a solution I'm afraid without a comprehensive indexing system or someone like you with a good memory picking it up!

Norman

Hi Jonathan,

I have made Mr Halls grinding rest from his book WPS 35 "A Complete Milling Course". It is relatively easy and does not take too long to complete with basic tools. Which means that you get to grind your lathe tools etc more quickly. I have not yet made the attachments from the book such as the slitting saw or milling cutter ones, but I will.

I too used a cheap offhand grinder from a DIY store and modified as Mr Hall suggests, also shown in the book. I used the standard clamping strip, not the thinner ones, and have had no difficulty. It only seems to be a problem if you are not accurate enough with the milling of the blocks.  When I attach it to it's new base I intend to make a second angle iron support to attach at right angles so that I can move the rest to the side of the cup wheel ( I hope that makes sense)

Unfortunately Mine was damaged by fire but I managed to rescue it and am at the moment in the process of refurbishing it. I do think that it is worth making, You could build one of the more capable ones at a later date when you have sharp tools . Here's a couple of pictures - you can click them to enlarge if you wish:

As Made.

Rescued from fire :

Best regards and let us know your decision and results. Many people seek advice here, we offer it but all too often we don't get to see the outcomes, not a lot to ask for all the thought, time and effort which goes into posting the advice

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 09/10/2012 12:39:01

Hi Norman (NJH),
I can't claim that I remembered the thread. I was Googling "Raymac" as I have not heard of that design and came across the old thread in the process.

Les.

Terry,

I have discovered that the great volume of rust compared to original metal can make things look far worse than they really are. I work with a couple of guys who collect old axes etc. and a virtually shapeless lump of rust can appear just well used after derusting.

Out of curiosity, have you tried any of the various de-rusting approaches on that poor beast? If so, what has it come out like?

Neil

Hi Neil,

I also recognise that iron oxide occupies a much larger volume than steel. I am an eternal optimist and always beleive in the best outcome. I couldn't bring myself to throw away a lot of hard work so have strived to save what I can and have been quite successful.

Here are a couple of extra pictures of the work in progress on the grinding rest. Actually I'm lucky that my time in the toolroom taught me how to grind tools freehand so the resat is not essential, but I would like to get the grinding rest operational for fun.

To remove the rust I initially used a hydrochloric acid bath to remove the deposits followed by a dip in hot washing soda solution to neutralise the acid and prevent further rusting. I scrubbed each component with a washing up bruch (plastic an dnylon) between stages.  Following that I dipped all components in an anti rust solution and put them into sealed plastic bags or boxes to protect them until I could offer my full concentration to restoration - and I still have a lot to do - I actually do the restoration on a 'need to' basis.  I should point out that i do this outside so as not to get acid fumes in the workshop with the inevitable corrosion which follows.

I hope the pictures below inspire others to not discard or overlook those apparently useless rusty items in the backe of the garage or at car boot sales, they can have a new life for very little cost and effort. Apparently, elbow grease is free!  Click the pictures for a larger view if interested.

Needs operating levers and upper work tables. Note how well the thicker side clamp arms fit. In fact the arms will support the upper block as a sliding fit before fitting the locking screw - no need for the thinner arms of Mr Hall's mods in this case..

Mock up of assembly, just need to clean up gib strips and table

I decided not to remove all of the rust pits, they remind me of the tragedy and also hold lubricant (dry ptfe)

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 09/10/2012 22:23:35

Johan

I cannot comment on which sharpening device is the best for you as I know little about the Bonelle or the Tinker, in any case it would be difficult for me not to be biassed, I will though add that having looked at the Raymac in the magazine (MEW issue 76) it describes it as just an end mill sharpening device.

You ask though "Why is Mr Hall using his own design if he can very easily make an advanced cutter grinder with his experience."

Firstly, practically all the items I have made have been chosen to suit the need of the magazine, either, purely as something to make, or to describe particular machining methods. Often though both.

The grinding rest though was a case of satisfying the magazine requirements and my own as at that time my only method was by hand using the workshops off hand grinder.

As, for me, designing an item is as satisfying as making it. In fact, if I had to place my preferences, it would be designing, using and finally making.

Had I have designed a more conventional tool and cutter grinder it would not have met the need of the magazine, the rest being part of a milling series for the newcomer to milling.

Also, such a machine would not do anything more than my rest that I would find beneficial. These would be such things as sharpening reamers, taps, etc. also outside the need of most workshop owners.

I do hope that the comments made by the previous contributors will have helped you come to a decision as either mine, the Bonelle or the Tinker will I am sure produce very good results. I have reservations about the Raymac a I believe it is only for end mills.

If you have not done so already, a look at the following two pages on my web site may be off help. There are also others that you could look at, see the sites index.

For sharpening in general

For shaping and sharping boring tools

Perhaps I should add that I also designed a grinding rest for the workshop who only had a lathe to make it on, though using a milling machine would still be appropriate if one was available. It is a simpler rest but the method of using it is almost identical to the one being discussed above. See here for details

Which ever machine you chose, sharpening workshop tools is a demanding task. Sharpening a lathes knife tool will be relatively easy but sharping a dovetail cutter, of making a cutter for cutting a clocks escape wheel will be much more demanding, Both of which I have done using my grinding rests

Hope this helps

Harold.

Edited By Harold Hall 1 on 09/10/2012 22:44:32

Being new to machining I made HH's grinding rest. It is inexpensive to make and I learnt a lot of new skills while making it, giving me confidence to tackle bigger projects. I am now building a model traction engine.

I just found this photo I took of the Bristol Club stand at the Taunton show.so thought I would add it for the record.

I think the designers Collier and Caseley are members of the Bristol club. As it is a simplified Quorn you could adapt many of the published tools and techniques.

 spelling might be Colyer

http://www.bristolmodelengineers.co.uk/gallery/tools/to7.htm

only pictures that google can find.

Edited By Bazyle on 29/10/2012 23:46:37

Hi Johan,

At the moment, I am considering building a Brooks-Stent to replace my newly re furbished HH Rest. It is detailed in MEW 16 and 17 and is made from solid bar with no castings and does not require any special equipmnet to build it.

Regards

Terry

Time for some fun:

I have done the model in ViaCAD Pro 8 so that I am sure how every part will look and fit. This project appears to be reliative easy to make and well thought through. I had my doubts previously because of how the angle plate had to be screwed to the bech, but after I have seen the two magnetic bases in the Model Engineers Workshop magazine, I knew I had found the answer.

I had given much thought on how to add rails on the bech as with the adco tool and cutter grinder set of plans, but I think this is a better option. Now I will rework the 3D model into a set of plans as there is NO way that I am going to take the book into my workshop. Dirty hands on clean white pages. No way!

I will post a comment later on after completion. My work lately is relative often interupted due to my osteotomy I had 6 months ago, but then I spend my time sitting and researching or drawing in CAD. At the start of this thread I asked questionut this device and now I am convinced that Mr Hall knew what he was doing when he designed this rest. I have worked through all the magazines of MEW and I have seen his quality of work and design. He earned my respect.

Regards

Johan

Edited By Johan Crous on 30/12/2012 16:54:10

I have seen this design when I worked through the MEW magazines. I have also saved the plans.

But later in life, I would like to build the ADCO tool and cutter Grinder just for the fun of it, because it will be using the same moter, made from a commercially bech grinder and therefor I will save on some resources. However I am sure that with all the accessories of Mr Hall, I doubt if I will ever need it. It will be most probably treated as a model.

My biggest bstacle always were screwcutting and milling and I can do both after I upgraded my lathe 6 years ago and bought a milling machine (mini mill) 3 months ago. I was alsways limited to milling in the lathe with a Myford vertical slide that I swopped for an anvil. Now I can do bigger projects and therefore the need to sharpen milling cutters. I am now also milling steel and not aluminium and brass only.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Regards

Johan

Like you Johan, I hate getting nice clean books dirty by taking them into the workshop.

As you are therefore going to produce a set of drawings to work to you may be tempted, I would have, to replace the slot in the angle with just two mounting holes for the magnetic bases as the bases would seem to be able to provide all the necessary adjustment.

However, I have very occasionally found it helpful to mount the two bases to one end with the rest at the other. Photo 21 on the following page shows an example.

**LINK**

Have you considered including the modification that ensures that the lower locking handle for the two arms always locks at the same angle, As originally designed the final handle position changes as the angle of the arms change, its a very simple mod.

The details are here if you are not aware of them.

**LINK**

Harold

Hi Johan,

There are 2 similar toolrests advertised on Axminster Tools site, one is their own brand and a similar one by Veritas, who I believe to be a Canadian tool manufacturer. Try ref nos. 600303 and 600320. The design appears to be very simple and I have started to make a copy for my own use.

I have made a different lathe tool holder for grinding according to Martin Cleeve`s book, Workshop Practice Series No. 3, Screwcutting in the lathe. I think this simple device was described in Model Engineer, possibly 1960`s? I have used it quite a bit and found it very good. It will though, only do lathe tools, flycutters maybe small shaper tools, since they are all of a basic shape. I have the Tinker device in course of construction but progress very slow at the moment.

Rgds, John.