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"Foundation" book has got me worried

As I only have the option of a garage for my workshop

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John Coates	26/04/2010 11:43:12
558 forum posts 28 photos	Putting aside my luck in getting my subscription offer book pretty asap, life has turned a bit less rosy. About 40 pages in and on second mug of tea I came across the section on building your workshop. Basically my option - brick built garage alongside the house - ranks marginally better than a terrorist cell in Khabul with "Al Queda Live Here" painted on the roof. It's uninsulated and not heated and now I'm afraid all my newly acquired kit (lathe, mill, accessories) and yet to be bought stock will rust away before my eyes. It's a double garage and has my motorbikes in as well. Is there anything I can do to help matters? The bikes have never suffered but a small pillar drill has a bit of rust on the column. What about covering the lathe and mill up (blankets?) when temperatures drop and putting silica gel packets in with the steel stock? Once again thanks for any suggestions John
Peter G. Shaw	26/04/2010 12:46:16
1531 forum posts 44 photos	Hi, This is a long standing perennial everhappening (and anything else you can think of) sore point! Like you, I use my garage. Like you it's uninsulated and single skin brick built. Ok, I have given up and rather than attermpt to keep it dry, I now protect the tools. Originally I used to spray with WD40 - got a 5ltr/1gal can many years ago from Halfords and still going strong. This worked, but was messy (and smelly). Then someone suggested heating the equipment. I now use on the lathe two small nominally 10w self-regulating heaters and on the milling machine one 10W heater. These were obtained from RS Components (rswww.com) and as far as the lathe is concerned I have not had any rust problems for 3 or 4 years now. I used to cover the lathe with an old clothy type table cover (at least I think that's what it was) and a sheet of plastic. Now, I don't bother unless I'm doing something else exceptionally dirty. In respect of the miller, I have only had it for 18 months, but so far it's been ok - and that's through the recent cold winter. The downside is that these heaters are nominally 10W. In fact, because they are self regulating, they do seem to take rather more power than that - last time I checked it was 18W each, but this is within the specification and is correct. I have also aquired (nice loose term that) from somewhere, a heating mat for a fishtank. This is underneath a sheet of aluminium on which is sat those items for the lathe which need to be rust free, chucks, vertical slide, even the mag mount and dti. This worked fine - until the garage roof leaked, that is, but I don't think I can cater for every eventuality. So there you are, my take on it. Probably expensive, ie something like 60w in total all year round, but it works and I'm happy. There are alternative methods of heating. One idea was a small, 10W or so, bulb under the lathe. Another idea may be to use heating tape (again from RS Components). Regards, Peter G. Shaw
Circlip	26/04/2010 12:55:26
1723 forum posts	Piranna heaters (upright type) if you can blag one, 25w's I think, under the cover and VENTILLATE the garage. Regards Ian. Edited By Circlip on 26/04/2010 12:55:44
peter walton	26/04/2010 13:13:32
84 forum posts	I have gone down the cover em up path, all large lumps of steel, lathe mill drill etc get cover after use with as thick a cloth cover I can find. All other bits and bobs go into wall cupboards and drawer units. The problem with condensation is not the lumps of metal in themselves rather the fact that they cool down faster so covering them up slows their cooling rate but you will then have to have some ventilation so that the moisture in the air is equalised to that of the outside air. You could also try dehumidifier but that will only work down to about 2-3 degree C mind you if the temp gets much below 0C then I dont think you will have any problems as the air should be getting dry. Peter
Steve Garnett	26/04/2010 16:05:23
837 forum posts 27 photos	You may benefit also from reading this thread, and there is at least one other that is thrown up if you do a forum search using the term 'rust'...
Baz	26/04/2010 17:24:23
1033 forum posts 2 photos	Hi John, Like you my workshop is in a garage, a detatched double to be precise, single skin, no insulation and no rust. The secret is to run a dehumidifier constantly.
AndyB	27/04/2010 18:55:08
167 forum posts 7 photos	I have converted an old, single skin, brick wash house and outdoor dunny (knocked into one). The door is original with a gap at the top for releasing those 'marvelous country smells' which I have left for ventilation. In the winter I cover the machines with old blankets and duvets that 'she who must be obeyed' has thrown out (personally I think they have got years of life in but she says that 'that stain' or that 'hole' or whatever means that the said item is no longer fit for use!) I never have trouble with rust. 1. the ventilation 2. I don't heat the workshop. Winter is a bit grim (especially this last one!) but if I have anything to do then I dress up warm. The headstock bearings on my 90 and 60 year old Drummonds aren't overly keen but running them to warm them up before use, starting with thin oil , SAE 10, and moving to thicker car engine multigrade with use doesn't seem to affect accuracy too much...but at least everything stays dry! Dry = no rust Condensation is the killer!!!! Andy
NJH	28/04/2010 17:23:10
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Edited By NJH on 28/04/2010 17:24:44
NJH	28/04/2010 17:31:47
2314 forum posts 139 photos	In a word – insulate I have a detached double garage built of concrete blocks, rendered externally under a pitched tile roof. I dropped a 4” wide stud partition down the centre, added a communicating door so that I can have a “clean” metalworking area and a “dirty” grinding, woodworking, brazing and general storage area .The “untidy area” retains the garage door and is un-insulated. The walls in the clean area have 2” battens bearing plasterboard, the concrete floor is battened and covered in flooring grade chipboard and then (as I got a bit carried away) that in turn is covered with thermoplastic tiles. Glass fibre insulation is applied under the floor (which also has a moisture barrier). Insulation has also been placed behind the plasterboard, in the partition and above a plasterboard ceiling that has also been added. The up and over door has been removed, partially bricked in and a double glazed window added. The overall size is 10ft x 17ft x7ft.This construction has proved to be successful in stabilising temperature swings – once heated it takes a while to cool down and, in the summer, will remain reasonably cool in shorter hot spells. The problem occurs though with condensation. In previous years I got around this problem by keeping out of the workshop during the winter months and not heating at all but I decided to “heat” this year. I have a small oil filled radiator with a thermostat and have been monitoring matters since January. In that time :Temperature range in unheated “dirty” area -1^o to 16.8^o - Temperature range in workshop 5 ⁰ C to 14.9 ⁰C Av cost background heating 33 p/day (Just over a pint of beer a week!) A small cost to set against the value of tools & machines. When using the workshop I add extra heat as required. (It also warms up quickly) Background heating is now off. I also log humidity and calculate the dew point. Over the period the workshop temperature has always been at least 3⁰ C above the dew point. No Rust !! Edited By NJH on 28/04/2010 17:35:53
Gordon W	29/04/2010 10:58:11
2011 forum posts	This is a constant theme ,the answer is it all depends, I have two sheds ,one with leaky tin roof and old stone walls, I've a 20 yr. old pillar drill in there which is often covered in snow, never mind condensation. But it is in almost constant use and covered in old engine oil, and no rust. Welding rods, small tools etc. kept in old steel cabinet with silica gel sachets, these usually are OK, the whole thing is very well ventilated. Small "clean" shop with lathe and bits is timber with tin roof and is often damp but no serious rust over the years, again the door is open when ever possible, tools are oiled. It all depends on what you want to spend, and how often tools etc. are used.
Dave Harris	29/04/2010 17:14:57
28 forum posts	My workshop is the garage attached to the house(typical semi!). The garage has single skin walls, no damp course. I have a lathe and milling machine and tooling which have lived in the garage for 5 years now without rusting. The garage is unheated,well ventelated and all the machinery has been wiped over with a 'coat' of SAE 30 oil which seems to be thick enough to stay on the machinery surfaces. Some steel stock I have started to show signs of rust after 2 years so it was cleaned and given a coat of the oil, since then it has been fine with no rust appearing. I think it is very much a case of - if you insulate the building and use a form of heating then you will need to use some form of 'rust barrier' and we all have our own pet methods. from cloth covers to WD40/oil of some description. if you dont heat the workshop and can allow good ventelation then this seems to save a lot of the problems, and as above tool usage helps as well.
Stub Mandrel	29/04/2010 19:52:28
4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles	I dry lined an ancient concrete 8 by 16 garage. No problems, except the day I pressure washed the outside and water got in under the eaves (idjut me). Your biggest problem is the bikes. Wet, warm bikes will mean condenstaion. if you don't use it for a car I'd divide it into two. 3x2 timber studding is MUCH cheaper than most timber that size, plasterboard is cheap and so is polystyrene to fill in the gaps. It's easy to run wiring in the walls and arrange the framing to support benches/shelves as required. I also put a plastic mebrane behind the plasterboard and on the concrete floor. On the floor I then put down plastic DPC below wooden beams, then a floor of ODB. Since then I've used chipboard flooring for a utility room instead which I think is a little more rigid. Neil
John Wood1	01/05/2010 15:09:23
116 forum posts	A double garage is a large space. The machining equipment needs to be kept at a minimum temperature (especially during the winter) using some kind of electric thermostatically controlled heater so, how about sub dividing the workspace with a room just for the lathe type equipment? this provides a much smaller space to heat and insulate (put a ceiling in) and is cosier to work in, it also helps having a separate area for grinding etc - just a thought All the best John
John Coates	01/05/2010 19:29:59
558 forum posts 28 photos	Thanks for all the replies There isn't really an option to build an insulated shell within the garage. I've just sorted it all out to make room for the lathe and mill and workbenches. So I have to work with what I've got. And The Boss will not let me do it, she'll want t to look like a garage. So it looks like a good coat of oil to preserve the body of the tools and heavy cloths or blankets wrapped round them and secured with bungees for when the temperature drops. Some form of low power consumption background heating as well. The garage is well ventilated due to a large gap between the double door and the frame. Due to a house extension build last year and an operation that's gone wrong, there has been no bike riding since July last year so sharing the space with hot motorcycles won't be a problem. Once I start again I'll bear the warning in mind. Thanks again. I'll read back through your posts and make some notes of what to do.
NJH	01/05/2010 20:30:34
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Ah John Always wise to keep "Domestic Management " on side! It seems though that with lathe and mill you are well set up so you need to raise the importance of the playroom - I mean workshop - in her eyes. Just remember with this set up you are able to mend pretty much anything so choose carefully, make the offer and stress how tricky it is and how much easier it would be if the workshop were larger, warmer etc.etc.( It probably won't work but you never know) I'm lucky and what's more she is a great cook too! All the best Norman
Terryd	02/05/2010 11:21:54
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi John, can I ask why you think that you have to wrap your machines in 'heavy cloths or blankets'. I'm not sure about any advantage and I believe that there are many disadvantages in using textiles in this way. Terry
Richard Parsons	02/05/2010 11:52:58
645 forum posts 33 photos	Greetings, In winter my old (above ground) workshop had a temperature range when un-heated of -20 to +5 degrees C. A bit nippy! so I built an Omni fuel (burns anything) ‘Kandelo’ from an old 50 gallon oil drum. A ‘Kandelo’ is a directly heated storage unit. The important thing with it is a good flue which should never get above 70º C. If it does it warns me and I close the dampers a little other wise I am wasting fuel! My new workshop is in the basement and has a year round temperature range of +10 to +30º C. It uses a heat pump built (with some help from a local ‘fridge repairer) from an old butcher’s fridge. This system gives you 3Kws out put for every Kw input. It takes its heat from the ground water some 6 meters below ground. Dick
John Coates	02/05/2010 17:53:12
558 forum posts 28 photos	Posted by Terryd on 02/05/2010 11:21:54: can I ask why you think that you have to wrap your machines in 'heavy cloths or blankets'. I'm not sure about any advantage and I believe that there are many disadvantages in using textiles in this way. I suppose I was thinking that if I knew the temperature was going to drop, or for those periods where it would be low for long periods of time (winter), then they would serve to stop condensation forming on the machinery. I must be honest and say that I don't think my garage has a problem with this as there is never any on my other bits of metal. Cardboard and paper in there can get that "cold damp" feel after winter where it seems to have absorbed moisture out of the air. The Chinese pillar drill was a cheap one bought for an urgent job that needed doing. So the specks of rust on the column were to be expected. I guess I need to buy a thermometer and monitor the temperature and put some background heat in there and check the machines regularly. They are both in pretty decent condition with hardly any rust. As I have just set them up I'm still learning about them and checking them so there may be more to find. I guess I'm more bothered about them being true and capable of making accurate cuts than looking like showroom condition. Thanks for all the advice. I shall try my best to follow it
Terryd	02/05/2010 22:48:16
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi John, textiles are absorbent, after all cotton is recognised as being super absorbent hence it's use for garments next to the skin. If you wrap your equipment in textile you are wrapping it in an absorbent material. Hence you are effectively wrapping it in a 'damp blanket'. As you say, card and paper feel damp after being exposed to that environment and no matter how low the humidity these materials will absorb any moisture available, they are hygroscopic after all. I wrap my machines in polythene or pvc sheeting. My reasoning is that the small amount of air trapped inside that envelope can only carry a small amount of moisture. This can be absorbed by a small amount of silica gel (in sachet form) in this envelope, and because the plastic sheet is not porous, no more moisture can enter. Ergo, little or no rust. The idea that somehow textiles are 'breathable' (only living things can breathe - people are confused, they mean 'porous') means that moisture can pass into the envelope within as well as out and will always balance the moisture content on both sides. Hence, using textiles covers means that you will always have moisture contacting the equipment inside. This is the reason that manufacturers covers are always made from non-porous, close fitting plastic sheeting and not textiles. Just my opinion, but based on reason and experience, not emotion or 'bad science' By all means use protective coatings, I use a commercial product, large plastic bags (easy to put on and remove) and silica gel to protect my kit and never have a problem even in my detached, unheated, rather damp, large garage/workshop. Oh and I also work most of the year round, but protect in between. I must admit that am going to try using 4 x 60W filament lamps wired in series below one of my machines as suggested elsewhere on another thread, next winter as an experiment. If you need any advice at all, don't be afraid to ask there is always someone who can offer good sound advice on these forums and will be willing to help. Welcome to the roller coaster, Best regards, Terry
Michael Malleson	04/05/2010 09:22:36
62 forum posts 2 photos	The BIGGEST problem is when there is a rapid temperature rise, say from a frosty morning to a warm coffee time. That is when the temperature of cold metal lags behind air temperature and all the humidity condenses on your beautiful shiny tools and slideways. ANSWERS :- 1 Minimise temperature fluctuations with the best insulation you can afford, (4" loft insulation equivalent minimum ) including the floor (more on this in a minute, see 4 ). 2. Install a dehumidifier and leave on permanently. Choose one with a dial setting knob which will enable you to vary the degree of "dryness" easily. Once the workshop is thoroughly dry it will use very litte power, even in a wet spell mine produces less than 5l. in a month. Make sure it is of a capacity to suit your workshop volume . 3. If you can afford to keep your workshop above ambient temperature , ( NOT gas or oil heaters, they emit the dreaded moisture ), this is better than putting on heat in a cold space as you would then get the undesirable rapid rise. The thicker your insulation, the cheaper it is to keep warm. 4 A wooden floor lagged beneath is warm on the feet, and kind to tools and just-machined bits that you may drop. 5 Moisture barriers are a must all round before anything else is applied. Hope this is of some help, Mike.

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