WIN-10 Query

Admin - by all means move this to a more appropriate forum if necessary.

Yes I know µSoft is not trying to make everyone buy even bigger confusers and change to Wobble-U-11, but...

This is pertinent here as among the programmes and files I do not want to lose are TurboCAD, and its drawings; but as part of a much wider query.

Can I safely move my PC to WIN-10, particularly due to my third-party programmes, the largest being TurboCAD 19 Pro with a fair collection of TC drawings?

Obviously I will copy as much as possible to a separate drive first, but fear my registrations, programmes and files being unuseable under W10. Would I lose my BT Internet e-post account and archive - MS has replaced Internet Explorer with a re-vamped version of Edge? Also Office is now by annual subscription of at least £80/year. A lot of money for no benefit.

Not long after buying the computer new, MS badgered me into "up-grading" (i.e. up-dating) to WIN 10. I carefully selected 'Custom' not 'Full' Installation, but it was still a disaster: skimpy, gimmicky, confusing and worse, it deleted all my web-site registrations. I had to revert to 7 and repair the damage as best I could.

I have now started looking afresh but don't want that chaos again, so am trying to assess the risks. I know MS will not support W7 but I don't know if "support" means genuine developments, maintaining security, or merely offering pointless extra applications.

SO..... please,

Has anyone gone through this process, was it painless or stretched their IT Degree, and were they able to continue to use all their MS and non-MS software and files? How much of WIN-10 could you omit, switch off or expunge?

'

Present set-up:

Win 7 Pro. Firefox. BT Internet. Secondary MS 'Outlook' account I rarely use now but cannot close.

Programmes:

MS Office - version not known (without I find its CD) but it ran on XP if not 5.

TurboCAD 19 Pro: the master copy and its training manual are on CDs.

Pov-Ray (an image-renderer more fun to use than be of use!)

A small but very effective measurements converter/calculator, origin unknown, possibly free-ware.

Some photo-faffing things.

Drivers for the HP printers and Tom-Tom "sat-nag" - W10 compatible up-dates may or may not exist for the particular items.

Files:

Hundreds: .doc, .xls, .jpeg, .bmp. .tcw (TurboCAD), a few other types; dating back many years / OS editions.

E-post Archive:

Several hundred - they could do with pruning!

Web-site Index:

Dozens, mainly engineering-related.

Security:

Bullguard anti-virus

I Do Not Use / Own:

Entertainments (music, films, TV). Facebook & Twitter. Video-link calls. Wire-less connections. "Smart" - 'phone & 'speaker, nor a tablet or lap-top.

End of support for Win 7 was 14th Jan 2020. There will be no updates, bug fixes, security updates, or anything fir Win 7. You are leaving yourself very exposed by not upgrading. Oct 14th 2025 is the end of support for Windows 10. As with win7 there will not be updates, bug fixes, security updates. I hate to say it but you will have to bite the bullet eventually.

Colin

Thank you Colin.

I fear you are right.

For my purposes it's only the security up-dates that really matter. I have not really met any errors that stopped what I was doing.

One thing that made me think of it though was when I tried Solid-Edge Community, suggested elsewhere on here, and learnt it is for W10 upwards only.

The other point of course is the intense commercial pressure on everyone into rapidly narrowing choices on how we conduct our daily lives, based on always and only the latest Microsoft diktats. Conform or be side-lined and ignored. That divisive pressure is only going to worsen.

MS does seem to allow its applications to work on rival systems, otherwise web-sites and e-posts would be impossible under them.

The problem I ask though, is whether any of my existing applications software and files will still work. I don't want to have to buy replacements for perfectly serviceable MS and 3rd-party programmes.

Nigel

I think it best to get an updated computer and relegate your current system to run all programs loaded but without internet connection, we all like to put these things off but time flies and your system could be compromised if connected to the net.

Emgee

Just doing some exploring on my laptop with a Win 7 setup in it yesterday and today got two updates downloaded. Not sure what they were and have no worries about any. I keep clones of working disks against failure for what ever reason. I keep Win 7 working primarily for CAD, then also a Win 10, current laptop will not run 11. When running old operating system it is best to disable Wi-Fi and not connect to the internet to prevent system updates so long as all is working.

Thank you Emgee, Harold.

Could be my best bet then - buy a new PC for Internet use but run the local applications: 'Word', 'Excel', CAD etc., on an isolated PC. Clearly I'd need be careful not to carry any virus or malware across on the USB 'pen' used as the bridge.

I am reluctant for obvious reasons to buy a completely new computer if I can avoid it, though I know this one is very unlikely to handle WIN-11 so buying one that is, will cover me for quite a number of years yet. I believe MS offers an on-line test to establish the 11 compatibility without having to find the system specifications.

(I thought I'd read MS is working on a WIN-12, but admits it so greedy that only a certain few, very expensive PCs can run it.)

The less obvious reason is that I don't think they are now fitted with CD drives, a bind when you still have many files so archived.

If I do decide to buy new then I will use an independant retailer, as I did with this present machine; knowing I may have to pay a bit more than in the whizzo-gadget supermarket, but be served by someone likely to understand the customer as well the goods!

'

I do have a secondary computer off-line. It was my old works computer, sold when the IT Department moved everyone from XP to WIN-7. It cost a £10 donation to charity plus about £35 to replace the original hard-drive, removed for security. I already had a licenced copy of XP and of Office -something-or-other. The future difficulty may only lie in equipment failure.

I am sure it will run TurboCAD 19 happily. It might reject the latest version but I can't use CAD to anything like its full potential anyway. The only snag would be that its rather sparse "Help" section is an on-line .pdf document; and I am not sure if it can be saved and run locally.

I do not use anything wi-fi so at least I needn't worry about that.

WIN-11 does need a very powerful computer - yet MS' own publicity suggests that if anything their serious applications like 'Excel' contain less than their previous incarnations, and 'Access' has been removed from 'Office'.So what and where all those overheads?

'

There is in a further point to consider. BT insists it will change everyone's phone-line from copper to glass-fibre in the next few years, meaning having to replace all land-line 'phones with ones powered from the domestic mains. Well, powered until the same power-cut that stops your PC, portable 'phone or lap-top charger, lighting, heating.... I would hope it won't need work in conjunction with a computer, though.

Still on Win7 64bit. Its brill.

There are a number of things that can help in this kind of situation:

Perhaps the most important is the ability to make full backups of the system partition (everyone should have this anyway). That way, you can always restore your original system if you don't like the new one.

Going further, you could get a front-panel, swappable hd cage such as https://www.startech.com/en-ca/hdd/satbp125vp. Then get two, preferably identical, SSDs and restore your current system to each. Save one and update the second to the new Windows version.

Now you have your current system readily available while playing with the new one. All you need to do is power-down, swap drives, power-up.

I used this method to determine that I didn't want to update from Win8.1 to Win10

I use a dual boot machine, with Linux Ubuntu / Firefox for use on the internet and Windows 7 with internet / wi-fi functions disabled to run old Microsoft programs. Linux can "see" the windows partition and downloads done under Ubuntu can be saved onto Windows. ( Ubuntu does have equivalent word processor, spreadsheet, image manipulation programs etc to Windows ), but if all your existing files are Microsoft, then dual boot is the way to go.

Personally, I have no intention of buying a new computer, just so I can run Windows 11 and in future could well end up exclusively using one of the Linux operating systems.

I too run Windows 7 and can dual boot into Linux. Under Linux I install Wine 4 (Using Play on Linux) and then I can install my old Office 97 - well I have only tried the Word part and it works. My Office 97 will also install under Windows 10, but Libre Office takes care of my word processing and calculating needs. So you could keep your old computer with Windows 7 and try to install dual boot with Linux for the times you need Internet access, if you can afford to buy another computer with Windows 10 (or 11) you can try and see if your TurboCAD can be transferred, Firefox can save your bookmarks so you can transfer them to another computer.

Thor

Thank you for the technical advice but I am afraid manipulating operating-systems, boot methods, Linux etc. is all beyond my knowledge and understanding. It would end in total failure, worse than my previous brush with WIN 10.

So I do not want to risk that.

My independent, WIN-XP computer has MS Office and some 3rd-party programmes, and should accept my edition of TurboCAD provided that's not been given a single-use lock. I will also see if I can copy the TurboCAD Help document (.pdf) to local.

I really need ask the MS support people if "up-grading"  the PC to W10, or a new PC, will assure continuity of e-post services and archives, web-site registries and indexing, legacy 3rd-party and MS Office software, and files compatibility.

@@@

Now here's a strange fly in the cylinder-oil, for all users, and out of our control entirely....

Is there any such thing as Windows 11?

My research showed MS has two sites: its primary "microsoft-dot-com" ; and one called something like "Microsoft Community" , headed with MS' 4-squares trade-mark.

MS-dot-com waffles excitedly about WIN-11, tells you its needs, etc.

MSC, and a slew of on-line IT magazines, categorically deny there is any "Windows 11" . They say, it's just additions (aka "up-grades" )  to WIN 10. MS used to call them "Service Packs".

Now, when MS introduced 10 it stated flatly that it is the last Windows-number version. It would simply keep stuffing more into W10. Presumably until it puts your unfortunate computer into a digital version of low water and holey fire on Bincombe Bank* .

So what is the truth, and by whom?

A shambles, more confusing than ever to mere users like me!

+++++

I know my PC will run WIN 10 - at least in Custom Installation mode to omit some of the guff.

I tried to assess if it would run the supposed W11, but could not find enough of its own specifications. In theory it might handle the important functions and applications.

(If it exists!) WIN 11 seems to need very powerful graphics ability my PC probably lacks, although its monitor might be acceptable. I imagine this is driven by the entertainments demand.

====

* Climbing from Weymouth: steepest part 1-in-40, I believe.

Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 13/12/2021 10:49:14

I upgraded to Windows 10 pro as soon as it was available and found that all my third party software worked fine, including turbocad 8. In fact I use hardly any Microsoft 'apps'. I turned off almost everything. I use libre office, Firefox and Thunderbird for most of my online activities.

Obviously we all have different experiences and no two PCs are identical so it is difficult to make recommendations. Whatever else you do, back up everything!

Mike.

Nigel,

I could have gone through a similar experience with the change from XP to W7. I used the MS tool, and it told me that a lot of my programs were out of date (true), that my printer wouldn't work (I already knew that due to it being my daughter's cast off after her upgrade to W7), and that my computer was barely able to run W7. This was why I moved to Linux. No more on that.

Knowing that this was coming up, this is what I did:

I had already decided, prior to the loss of XP, that I wanted to get away from MS as much as possible, so I first setup the Firefox internet browser which has both Linux & MS versions. I found that there was a method, built in to Firefox from what I remember, which allowed for the import of all bookmarks. Job done.

I did the same for Outlook Express which I replaced by Thunderbird. Again, there are facilities for transferring the data across.

Next, Office Suites. I have never used MS, purely because of the costs. Instead I used Lotus Smartsuite, then Open Office and finally Libre Office. The last two have both MS & Linux versions. As far as the data is concerned, I have always held my data in separate folders, with a separate folder therein for each of the main items. Once Libre Office was setup, it was easy to find the relevant data and open them - both Libre Office Calc & Libre Office Writer have a high degree of conformity with the MS offerings, but my understanding is that they are not perfect. Having said that, I have not had any problems, but then my office data is not particularly complex. Incidently, neither Smartsuite nor Open Office are recommended, ie go straight to Libre office. I assume that the other components of Libre Ofice are similarly highly compatible with MS Office.

I have to say that I do have some Smartsuite files on my computer which haven't been looked at for many a year. Libre Office cannot open them, so I have loaded Smartsuite, or rather the required components, into my Linux based machine and using Wine can then open them, resave in a different format, & hey presto, job done. But in reality, I am unlikely to need to open 10 year old files.

Similarly, I have some Paint Shop Pro v.7 (PSP) files. With these, I, even now, have to load PSP via Wine, then load the data file and resave in a compatible format, usually .jpg. These can then be opened by whichever program I wish, usually The Gimp, but could just be a display program.

I was left with a DOSbased database program, Mpro, and a CAD program, DesignCad. Bearing in mind I was moving to Linux, Mpro was eventually operated from Linux via Dosemu, a DOS emulator. DesignCad was used, and is still used in Linux via Wine.

The trick with all of this is to do it a bit at a time. Don't go for the full Monty, you'll simply confuse yourself, as initially I did!

Decide what data you want to keep, and save it, preferably onto CD/DVD or possibly memory stick. Do it twice for security. Then start experimenting. Perhaps even trying to load your programs, TurboCad etc onto your XP machine. Of course, you could dual boot, perhaps, if W10 will let you. It is, of course, possible that W10 will not allow you to reload your programs. Apparently, the home versions do not allow any DOS based programs, but I understand that there are ways around this. The "professional" versions do allow it.

Please note, I am NOT trying to convert you to Linux. I am relating my experiences from about 10 years ago, how I did it, and what I found out when I did it. I'm sorry, you WILL have to experiment somewhat and that is why I recommend doing one program at a time.

In respect of the impending loss of exchange landlines by BT, there are going to be a large, extremely large number of people in the same position. There is going to be a loss of service, ie, how can you call 999 when the power has gone off,and your internet based router no longer works, hence your new internet based telephones cannot work either. Unless, of course, you have a battery backup scheme, and even then it will have to be reasonably large to be able to provide sufficient power for your router etc. But what I do not know is what, under those circumstances, will happen in the green cabinets that today extract the internet data and send it via the fibre network. Do they have batteries? And if so, how long will they last? Telephone exchanges have a 24 hour minimum backup, unless they've reduced it since I left!

Good luck,

Peter G. Shaw

With apologies to Irish friends, reminds me of the joke where a hopelessly lost tourist asks directions and is told: I wouldn't start from here!

A warning to chaps who don't like keeping their computers up-to-date. Every update that's ignored increases the size of the gap. Converting from XP to W7 is relatively painless, as is W7 to W10, and apparently (I've not done it yet), W10 to W11. Software vendors typically support a gap of two versions, and 'Compatibility Modes'. Both are temporary palliatives. With time compatibility becomes increasingly uncertain. Hardware, Drivers, DLL, security features and other components all slowly become incompatible.

The gap between XP and W11 is an abyss. All the problems dodged by not upgrading step-by-step have been stored up, plus a mass of new problems due to missing conversions and failing to adopt multiple major changes at the time.

Jumping a big gap isn't an update, it's a migration.

I think Nigel has the answer. Buy a new W11 computer: nothing special required but don't cheapskate by buying a system with tiny disc and RAM that can't be upgraded. Don't add to migration problems by attempting it on a midget computer. Getting an overloaded computer to perform is a job for a specialist, and the easiest and cheapest solution is almost always to upgrade the hardware.

Likewise avoid replacing software with cut-down versions: many vendors, including Microsoft and TurboCAD, sell feature-reduced versions of their products suitable for customers who only need the basics. Full versions are more likely to be able to import a wide range of file types, including old ones!

New computer bought, plan the job as a migration.

1. The old machine continues to run essential services whatever might go wrong during migration. It buys time for the owner to suss out what works, what doesn't, and what needs to be done about issues.
2. The new computer is installed, preferably with the latest versions of old software. It will be necessary to spend a fair amount of time learning how to use it before starting to transfer anything from the old machine. Many similarities, but W11 is not quite like W7 - stuff's moved about, looks different and has been renamed or replaced. (No IE in W11 etc.) Learn the ropes first. See if it recognises printers etc. Don't expect too much of ancient peripherals - if they can't be made to work quickly, replace them.
3. Start the migration with soft targets, and do it in small steps. Plan to fight a war of many small battles by never biting off more than you can chew. Don't change anything on the old machine, always work with copies on the new machine. If a battle is lost, the old machine is the fall-back, so keep it in good order. Start with data rather than applications because there's a reasonable chance old data will be OK on a new machine, or can be converted. (Keep an open mind about conversion, for example if an elderly .doc won't open, try converting it to .docx on the web)
4. Once a reasonable amount of data has been transferred successfully (by winning several small battles!), move to installing the legacy applications (ie those were you didn't buy with the new machine). One at a time. With luck, they will install directly or run in Compatibility Mode. But applications
5. Expect to end up with a list of successes and failures. The failures need further analysis and may be troublesome:
   • Do nothing, run them forever on the old machine and hope it lasts longer than you!
   • Do nothing, abandon the software and data, perhaps recreating important data manually
   • Do nothing yet. Carry on with the old machine for the moment, but prioritise the problems. Study them, take advice, and consider options.
   • Upgrade to current version of software on new machine and attempt data migration as above
   • Switch to another software package
6. During migration, avoid using the same software on both machines at the same time. Doing so is liable to create a complicated mix of old and new unmigrated data that's hard to track.
7. Don't give in or expect perfection. The goal is to transfer everything important to the new computer because old computers eventually die! However, if complete transfer is impossible, the aim is to minimise the damage.

With computers little and often is preferred to big-bang.

Dave

Hmmm Windows 10.

Overall It works well in an evermore Microsoft centric sort of way, you can turn off all the back to base stuff it asks you about when you install it hoverer it periodically nags and nags asking you to turn on this or that "Feature".

I did an update from Windows 7 to 10. not a new installation.

It did an OK job of transferring most but not all the software I use.

It installed my licensed Non Subscription version of AutoCad 2021, Revit and 3D Studio and two versions back. However previously installed earlier versions did not work. Yes this is in accordance with Auto desk's licencing policy, however they all worked with windows 7! This may be a problem for other users with older versions. I guess it calls home while Transferring.

I still use Microsoft Office Pro version 2003. including MS Access That transferred successfully.

However hardware gremlins that have caused me a lot of grief.

I have an HP 42" Designjet 500 plotter and a Xerox Office printer. Both are connected to a separate Windows 7 PC that is connected to the network. I can print a pdf created in Autocad if i transfer the files to the PC then print it from there The same applies to Microsoft Office Word Excel and Access programs.

I can also print to both printers over the network from another windows 7 PC. But not windows 10.

The problem is my printers are old in age, they work perfectly! The windows 10 drivers will not communicate. Not having direct access to the plotter in particular is a real bugbear. It would be very expensive to replace. There is a lot of discussion on the net about HP driver issues. with windows 10. I have had a couple of goes at sorting out the problem using various "fixes" posted on forums but to no avail. Somewhare out there there may be a workaround... Fingers xxx

Anyone with older hardware should check, they may need to keep an older Windows 7 PC to run it.

Regards
John

Lots of long and well thought out responses above, but I'll just throw one other into the mix.
This is a simplified version, as my own journey involved a dying HDD in a RAID array, and a dead MOBO, amongst other amusements.
Essentially on one of my PCs, I was running XP, and needed to update, but didn't want to lose XP as I still had programs and a scanner which would only work under that operating system. (similar to your W7 installation)

I bought an SSD, they are quite cheap now, and offer a much faster working environment.
To that SSD I cloned my XP (in your case it would be W7), and made sure it would run and boot OK.

Unplugged it and moved back to my original HDD installation of XP. I then installed a legit version of W7, and made it a dual boot system.
Next I upgraded W7 to W10, via the MS upgrade process, which still woks OK, even though the final date has now passed.
This was then officially activated via my Microsoft account and all correctly registered, but at this point it's still an upgrade, with the associated disadvantages.
Nirsoft's Produkey can be used to extract the registration keys of XP, W7 & W10.
I then re-fitted my SSD, and put the HDD into storage.

When I now came to install W10 on the SSD, it recognised a previous Windows operating system, and offered a dual boot option.
In my case it was XP, in yours it would be W7.

Everything installed OK, and because there was only one hardware change, HDD to SSD, it auto activated via my Microsoft Live account
I now have a fully working XP/W10 dual boot system, with a clean W10 installation, in your case, it could be W7/W10

My other main PC was running W7 pro, and I just upgraded that for free by the official route, again using Produkey to extract the Windows key, just in case of a future re-install.

Just in the process now of trying to learn a bit about Linix (Mint-20), on a spare bare bones PC case I was given recently; That is proving slightly more difficult.

Bill

Vic -

Your Virgin phone service: is the data link by fibre but accompanied by a metal wire for the power then? At the moment I think the BT lines are fibre to the distribution cabinets in the street, and those have either an electrical supply from the exchnage or a local supply perhaps with back-up batteries.

In the original system the home phone used 50V d.c. plus superimposed 75V a.c. ring-tone (I think that way round) with decoupling capacitors to separate them in the phone itself. These were from the exchange. What we are all going to have to do if the home 'phone cannot be supplied from the exchange or cabinet, is keep a portable 'phone, of any sort, charged and if a power cut occurs, use it only as necessary.

'''

Returning to MS w-number. It may be that my simplest and safest option is to either up-rate or replace my present PC with 10, having backed everything up on SSDs and my XP PC.

Edited By vic newey on 13/12/2021 14:06:55

Without going into to great a depth, it depends on what technology is used to supply your phone and internet service. I'm referring here to Openreach/BT. Virgin cable is different.

In my case, I'm on copper pairs to the exchange, as it's so close, so phone line and -50V comes direct. Broadband is injected on top of that and I have a router in the house. The limiting speed for the broadband, is the length and quality of the copper pairs.

Next up is Fibre-To-The-Cabinet (FTTC), copper pairs supply the analogue telephony, but the Broadband is injected at the local cabinet, which will be closer to the customer, hence the increase in speed.
Fibre-To-The-Premises, (FTTP) as the name suggests, has broadband supplied over fibre all the way, hence the very fast speed. Analogue telephony can still come over copper pairs.

Note that the telephone signal to the actual premises has historically been analogue, even though the switching and transmission within the network was/is digital, so the power for your home phone still came down copper wired from the exchange with both battery and generator backup. The broadband also has power backup at the exchange end.

Unfortunately, the Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) comprising of System-X and AXE-10 (System-Y), is on its last legs, and needs replacing.
The new system will be using Internet Protocol (IP) for voice as well as Broadband, so fully digital end to end.

I think the BT version is called BT Voice, but I've still not researched it properly yet as I's not yet available here.
In this case, the telephony will be Voice Over IP (VOIP) and you will need to plug your conventional phone into the back of your broadband router. I'm told it works well enough, so you could use a cordless phone system, plugged into your broadband router, and have cordless handsets dotted around the house.

You can also get fully digital handsets, which will connect to your broadband WiFi network and be associated with your dedicated phone number.

If you have a wired extension in your house, I believe you can plug that into the router, and work as before, but you are likely to need more modern phones with MF dialling as Loop-Disconnect will no longer be recognised. (i.e. conventional old fashioned dials)

Re. power cuts and VOIP, the problem isn't so much the phone handsets, as the router itself.
If you lose power, you also lose thee broadband router, and thus the telephony as well, so no chance of using the line for a 999 call.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies (UPSs) are an answer, as they can maintain power to the router; as long as the exchange is still working, you will have telephony.
Apparently suppliers will be obliged to supply a UPS to vulnerable customers; Storm Arwen, has led to prolonged power outages and UPSs are only likely to last for hours, rather than several days.

The only practical answer, for emergency use, seems to be a mobile phone, on a pay as you go network if needed.
N.B. many Pay As You Go sims have credit expiring if it's not used, and also the numbers will be deleted unless used once every few months, so don't just leave the spare phone in a drawer.

The other issue, is that when no-one has power, the cellular network gets full, so you can't make a call anyway, although emergency calls should take priority and make a connection available.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 13/12/2021 14:21:26