genuine or fake?
the artfull-codger | 24/09/2018 14:44:52 |
![]() 304 forum posts 28 photos | My last tub of loctite is now about 30 yrs old , it still works but you've got to be quick as it sets fast & I don't use it for important jobs I recently bought some 648 retaining compound off the internet, fairly cheap & most of the writing is in chineese,& looking at prices they range from £10 ish to £30 ish for 50ml, anyone know if these are "fakes" or if they're ok, I've used it for some jobs & it seems ok but don't want to use it on something important. Thanks,Graham.
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fizzy | 24/09/2018 15:00:09 |
![]() 1860 forum posts 121 photos | Does it have a use by date stamped on the bottom in black - all my genuine ones do?
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the artfull-codger | 24/09/2018 15:35:03 |
![]() 304 forum posts 28 photos | Thanks for that info Fizzy,never even thought to look underneath! there's 2 rows of letters/numbers one above the other == MT70727399 USE BY 20191028 Set out like that in small dots [had to get the optivisor out to read them!] Graham. |
Tim Stevens | 24/09/2018 18:19:52 |
![]() 1779 forum posts 1 photos | I am not sure that a chap who ignores a use-by date for over 25 years should be worried about whether his latest supply is genuine or not. Tim |
Brian H | 24/09/2018 18:40:16 |
![]() 2312 forum posts 112 photos | Some years ago I was involved in items for the MoD and we had a box of Loctite 601 that was coming up to the use-by date. I contacted Loctite to see if a replacement Certificate could be supplied as none of the bottles had been opened. They replied that they could only issue new certificates if the whole box was returned and that they would have to individually test every bottle,costing much more that buying new supplies. An engineer I was speaking to told me that they only put the use-by date on because it was an MoD requirment to have one and that the material was useable as long as it was liquid and not contaminated. I had to bin the box, but not before some of it somehow ended up on my workshop! Brian
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Michael Gilligan | 24/09/2018 20:03:09 |
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Posted by BDH on 24/09/2018 18:40:16:
An engineer I was speaking to told me that they only put the use-by date on because it was an MoD requirment to have one and that the material was useable as long as it was liquid and not contaminated. . Very similar experience here MichaelG. |
SillyOldDuffer | 24/09/2018 21:14:07 |
10668 forum posts 2415 photos | Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/09/2018 20:03:09:
Posted by BDH on 24/09/2018 18:40:16:
An engineer I was speaking to told me that they only put the use-by date on because it was an MoD requirment to have one and that the material was useable as long as it was liquid and not contaminated. . Very similar experience here MichaelG. Always nice to think the MoD don't know what they're doing but if 'an engineer' was telling the truth, why did Loctite tell Brian 'they would have to individually test every bottle', if their product doesn't age? (Of course it does!) I think the issue is what's meant by 'useable'. Quite often adhesives degrade quite slowly, and old stock might be acceptable for non-critical work, but not where full-specfication is required. Quite dangerous to go off-specification when you don't know what the customer application is. Also, use by dates generally assume the worst-case about storage making it entirely possible to find well-managed stuff in good order long past it's disposal date. But would you trust it if it really mattered? After all some fool might have left it stacked it on a radiator for 5 years... Dave
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Michael Gilligan | 24/09/2018 22:20:12 |
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | You make some good points, Dave, but let me give you the story: I'm not going to labour this [it's been done to death in previous threads], but in summary: The original Loctite grades were all anaerobic-curing 'acrylics' [in the generic sense] The advice that we were given by the technical staff at Hemel Hempstead was simply that the cured product would have much the same mechanical characteristics, however it cured. ... Ergo, if it's still sufficiently liquid to get out of the container and into the job it's still good to use. These products have very little 'adhesive' characteristic; they are essentially gap-fillers. Henkel's range is obviously much broader now, and some of the products will have genuine shelf lives ... but there is a cynical little nag in my mind telling me that it's to their great advantage to 'shelf-life' all of the products. The dregs of my 30+ year old bottle of 638 are currently sitting open to the air ... I cut the top off the bottle when I could no longer unscrew the cap ... and I will have no hesitation using it when I need to. MichaelG.
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Jon Lawes | 24/09/2018 22:30:21 |
![]() 1078 forum posts | I had to throw away a reel of solder from our COSHH cabinet at work the other day as it was past its use by date... |
Clive Hartland | 24/09/2018 22:38:59 |
![]() 2929 forum posts 41 photos | The use by dates are of course for qualty control, All products have a data sheet which at Leica we filed and referred to as needed. In the Instrument repair system Leica garantee use of instruments to minus 50 C But, only if lubricated with genuine in date greases. Some of these greases cost £500 for a kilo ! a small 25 gm pot dated could be £50. All the greases were of Avionic requirement. Greases dry out, solvents and thinner parts evaporate and the grease become hard. Every 3 mionths we would check the dates and even if it had not been used was disposed of. The grease had very little other use as they were specfied for a particular purpose and not for general use. Of interest it was recomended that instruments were serviced/overhauled every 12 months. We also used adhesives and these were supplied in one off packs and again dated but kept in a refrigerator at a specified temperature, again if not used by the sell by date they were disposed of. One knows how dusty workshops and shelves can get and contamination of small bottles of Loctite etc is endemic. I have had Loctites fail, these being adhesive types. no idea why but would eventually go back to a mechanical fix of some sort. |
Enough! | 24/09/2018 22:40:17 |
1719 forum posts 1 photos | Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/09/2018 21:14:07:
Always nice to think the MoD don't know what they're doing but if 'an engineer' was telling the truth, why did Loctite tell Brian 'they would have to individually test every bottle', if their product doesn't age? (Of course it does!)
Regardless of how realistic the use-before-date is, why would any manufacturer take on the responsibility/risk for warranting a product beyond its stated shelf life - for something that is the buyer's problem - without justifying it for themselves financially ... however tiny the risk? |
Robert Atkinson 2 | 24/09/2018 23:12:31 |
![]() 1891 forum posts 37 photos | Bandersnatch is totally correct, it's all about liability and total costs. Twenty or thirty pounds for a bottle of sealant (or lubricant) may sound a lot to a hobbyist but it's a fraction of the cost of re-working a batch of kit when it didn't go off, or a warranty claim, never mind being sued because a car, train or plane crashed because a screw came loose. It does happen, the 2011 crash of a P51 Mustang at the Reno air races killing 10 spectators and the owner/pilot was caused by the failure of locking on a small screw on a elevator trim tab (not loctite, an old "red fibre" insert captive lock nut that probably ha been on the aircraft sincei t was built). You don't want to be the company that saved £20 on loctite and killed people and / or caused millions in damage. I have a bin full of precision minature bearings for aircraft equipment whose lubication time expired 20 years ago and I rescued frm the skip. They are fine for hobby work but I would not put them in an aircraft. Robert. Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 24/09/2018 23:13:20 Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 24/09/2018 23:13:51 |
I.M. OUTAHERE | 25/09/2018 00:21:39 |
1468 forum posts 3 photos | If i were building a space ship and wanted to sleep at night knowing the stuff i stuck it together with is going to work within its design parameters i would buy genuine loctite ! We build models of various bits of machinery so i don't think extra cost of a name brand or worrying if it is still in date is justified . I use cheap stuff all the time and have never had a problem and i don't think i have ever checked the date on any of it ! I used to buy loctite mastergasket and swore by it but i came across some cheaper stuff in an auto parts store and gave it a go - looks and works exactly the same as genuine loctite - 1/3 the price though ! Why pay for a name when you don't have to ? I learned this the hard way many years ago when buying spanners for my workplace , the supplier sold three brands - one was their own and i asked the sales person to explain the difference . He went out to the store and returned with three open end / ring spanners , one of each brand and placed them on the counter and asked me to pick the difference - I couldn't . He explained the only difference was the name stamped in them and they all came from the same factory - all they did wash change the part of the die set that stamped the name in them but as the other two brands had a better known name they were more expensive and all had the same warranty . |
Howard Lewis | 25/09/2018 08:26:30 |
7227 forum posts 21 photos | Years ago, (about 14) I made up a backplate to fit ER collet chucks to my lathe (slightly unusual Mandrel thread size) Having coated both chuck and backplate with well outdated Loctite thechuick was clocked on the bore and gently knocked until it ran true within 0.0005". later, I obtained backplate castings and ha machined them, attempted to remove the ER collet chucks from the fabricated backplates. I ceased using a copper/hide mallet when the danger of doing damage became obvious. The collets are still on the fabricated backplates! So a couple of C I backplates with a 2.25 x 8 tpi BSW thread are surplus to requirements. Howard |
Weary | 25/09/2018 08:58:43 |
421 forum posts 1 photos | Howard, You have a Personal Message. Phil. |
Ron Laden | 25/09/2018 13:54:38 |
![]() 2320 forum posts 452 photos | I have a bottle of Loctite screwlock which must be 20 years + and I still use it today, seems to work as it always has. I see there are a few cheaper brands available now but I wonder if they are actually the same as their Loctite equivalent and work as well, maybe they do....? I do think though that Loctite base their pricing on their trade name. Last week I had a choice of a Loctite cyno for £12.45 or the same size bottle from an unknown supplier for £3.75. I went with the cheaper one as I have used cheapo cyno for years and never had any issues. |
Vic | 25/09/2018 16:07:42 |
3453 forum posts 23 photos | Posted by Ron Laden on 25/09/2018 13:54:38:
I have a bottle of Loctite screwlock which must be 20 years + and I still use it today, seems to work as it always has. Yes same here, worked fine when I used it a little while back. |
not done it yet | 25/09/2018 19:32:55 |
7517 forum posts 20 photos | ‘Fraid 20 years is nowhere near the oldest. I have one small bottle which is well over 45 years old. Originally used for big end bolts on Ford Anglia /Cortina/Escort engines in the early 70s. I didn’t buy it - my brother gave it me. I’ve replaced it several times over the years, while the tiny bottle was “lost” but used when found and needed. Most recently used only last year. It has out-lasted some of the larger ‘Truloc’ bottles of sealant obtained just over 30 years ago. I do have a recent acquisition of a bottle of permanent loctite equivalent, but my little 40 year old plain ‘loctite’ (no number as far as I recall) is still liquid, still works and is findable - again - in my workshop. |
Dinosaur Engineer | 02/10/2018 17:03:37 |
147 forum posts 4 photos | Unless Loctite is now made in China , where would the Chinese get it from ? |
Mike Crossfield | 02/10/2018 17:37:00 |
286 forum posts 36 photos | Like the artful codger, I needed a new stock of Loctite 603, and was seduced by a 50ml bottle for less than £8 from China. The labelling, at least the English parts, is completely upfront about it being made in China by Henkel Asia Pacific, and the use by date on mine has just passed. Would they do that if they were trying to counterfeit? Anyway, the product looks and smells very similar to the nearly empty 20 year old bottle I have on the shelf, and it seems to work ok though I haven’t done any severe tests. However I’ve noticed that liquid leaking from a joint sets hard if it isn’t wiped away very quickly. It seems that being in contact with cured material in the joint is sufficient, even though it’s in the open air. My old stuff stays liquid for ages if it’s outside the joint. Something is certainly different, But does it matter in terms of bond strength? |
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