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Anthony Knights16/07/2021 09:29:57
681 forum posts
260 photos

I think the points made several times about infrastructure are significant, especially in my case. My house, built about 1960, along with about 150 others in the street, has an electric meter rated at "MAX 40 amps". I would assume that the input fuse to the house and the supply cable are similarly rated.

meter30-6-21.jpg

Would this be able to supply electric heating + charge a car + supply the normal domestic load. I think a major up grade will be required, especially if all the other houses in the street are the same.

ChrisH16/07/2021 09:41:49
1023 forum posts
30 photos

Antony - sounds like your street power supply is that peice of wet string I was talking about........!

But actually I was thinking of streets and power supplies made earlier than that - although in fairness many would have been supplied by overhead cables maybe, that have long been upgraded. But your 1960's house - that is getting too close for comfort in terms of time. If power supply cables are overhead then that is a relatively easy upgrade, but if they are buried and not in conduit which I suspect, but don't know for sure, many would be, then that is a much more expensive and disruptive job to be upgraded.

It also needs a strong will and a certain amount of money to implement - I'm not holding my breath.

Chris

J Hancock16/07/2021 09:57:31
869 forum posts

To those who believe 'NATIONAL Grid ' have a plan.

Yes, but if you listen it is FBR's .

Too late for that AND FBR's are notoriously unreliable anyway.

Good luck with that one lads.

Old tech PWR's it has to be, but even that is too late now.

SillyOldDuffer16/07/2021 11:06:24
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Anthony Knights on 16/07/2021 09:29:57:

I think the points made several times about infrastructure are significant, especially in my case. My house, built about 1960, along with about 150 others in the street, has an electric meter rated at "MAX 40 amps".

...

Would this be able to supply electric heating + charge a car + supply the normal domestic load. I think a major up grade will be required, especially if all the other houses in the street are the same.

No it wouldn't, which is why this is a 'THINK BIG' problem. There will have to be large scale upgrading of infrastructure, but don't panic, it's been done before. Laying wires in trenches and between poles, rewiring houses, replacing meters, and transformers is all bog standard stuff, and - sooner or later - 1960's electrical installations have to be upgraded anyway. The infrastructure aspect doesn't worry me at all, other than people haven't grasped the need to get on with it.

More difficult is where electricity will come from. In one sense this isn't a problem either because the world is awash with energy, and it's all free! Nothing in engineering is ever easy, and here the hard part is how to collect and store electricity. Good progress has been made on collecting, to the extent that renewables already meet about 30% of UK energy needs: not bad considering this was thought 'impossible' 20 years ago, and there are chaps on this forum who still don't believe it!

Storage is far more difficult. Here, I think mankind will have to get used to energy costs vayring hour by hour, and consumers will have to be careful about when they consume power. But that's not beyond the wit of man, and the technology needed to manage variable tariffs already exists. It's an extension of Economy 7.

I hate change because it means something is wrong. We've been fortunate to live at a time when fossil fuels made energy literally dirt cheap. Sadly, like it or not, that party is ending. Climate Breakdown and rapidly rising energy costs are both clearly on the horizon. The outlook is bleak unless humanity rises to the challenge: I think the technology is there, what's lacking is our will to adapt to new realities. It's always been thus...

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/07/2021 11:07:24

Mark Rand16/07/2021 11:21:53
1505 forum posts
56 photos

Bah! Humbug!

It'll never catch on. We'll always need the stables and the farriers.

In a way, it's a good thing that those who practice model engineering tend towards the old and decrepit, because many of the posts on this thread seem to think that progress is totally impossible.

I'm 63, when I was a kid, on average only one in four households had a motor car. if one wanted to drive from one end or side of the country to the other, it was quite probable that one would be travelling on the Fosse Way, Watling Street or Ermine Street etc. for some or all of the trip.

Things move on. The world can't afford for us to keep burning fossil fuels at increasing rates as if there were no consequences to such actions.

If you can't accept the change, stay out of the way!

Edited By Mark Rand on 16/07/2021 11:23:10

Peter Ellis 516/07/2021 14:07:51
110 forum posts
11 photos

No-one has mentioned gas for cars. My Hyundai Santa Fe runs on propane at circa 50p/litre. It is popular here, with no shortage of gas pumps. It might be a practical interim solution.

Michael Gilligan16/07/2021 14:59:01
avatar
23121 forum posts
1360 photos
Posted by Peter Ellis 5 on 16/07/2021 14:07:51:

No-one has mentioned gas for cars. […]

.

Probably because gas is on the naughty-list

MichaelG.

pgk pgk16/07/2021 15:50:19
2661 forum posts
294 photos
Posted by Mark Rand on 16/07/2021 11:21:53:

Bah! Humbug!

It'll never catch on. We'll always need the stables and the farriers

I'm 63, when I was a kid, on average only one in four households had a motor car. if one wanted to drive from one end or side of the country to the other, it was quite probable that one would be travelling on the Fosse Way, Watling Street or Ermine Street etc. for some or all of the trip.

Exactly.. there's the problem.. far too many of the lower orders with access to cars clogging up my roadsdevil

I can recall catching the 'railbus' from village to school before Dr Beeching put a stop to it...the same short sighted money saving of scrapping the trolley bus and tram in favour of diesel.routemasters...

pgk

Stuart Bridger16/07/2021 17:21:01
566 forum posts
31 photos
Posted by Anthony Knights on 16/07/2021 09:29:57:

I think the points made several times about infrastructure are significant, especially in my case. My house, built about 1960, along with about 150 others in the street, has an electric meter rated at "MAX 40 amps". I would assume that the input fuse to the house and the supply cable are similarly rated.

meter30-6-21.jpg

Would this be able to supply electric heating + charge a car + supply the normal domestic load. I think a major up grade will be required, especially if all the other houses in the street are the same.

Not just the fuse rating (100A is normally recommended), but some older buildings have a "looped service". This is where the main incoming supply cabling is daisy chained in and out of properties along the street. This you can tell if you have two big cables coming into the fuse block. If this is the case you will not not be allowed to connect an EV charger until the looped service has been upgraded to a conventional star type feed. This means running in a new cable.

Roger Best16/07/2021 17:26:06
avatar
406 forum posts
56 photos
Posted by Anthony Knights on 16/07/2021 09:29:57:

I think the points made several times about infrastructure are significant, especially in my case. My house, built about 1960, along with about 150 others in the street, has an electric meter rated at "MAX 40 amps". I would assume that the input fuse to the house and the supply cable are similarly rated.

meter30-6-21.jpg

Would this be able to supply electric heating + charge a car + supply the normal domestic load. I think a major up grade will be required, especially if all the other houses in the street are the same.

That meter belongs in a museum, possibly with the rest of your electrics.

My house had a 100A supply from many years ago, you have been short changed. My house is older than yours, late 40s, it has been updated some time with white wiring, probably in the 1990s.

Anthony Knights17/07/2021 06:38:54
681 forum posts
260 photos

I definitely have an old system. There are FUSES in the consumer unit. There is a recently installed metal housing fitted with a circuit breaker which supplies the central heating boiler. It has to be metal because circuit breakers have been known to catch fire when they fail. That's progress I suppose.

If they wanted to update my house (and all the others on the street) to 100amps, they would have to dig up the road and fit bigger supply cables which could take the load.

Vic17/07/2021 10:55:03
3453 forum posts
23 photos

My place was built in the 1930’s and has a 100A supply.

Samsaranda17/07/2021 11:19:35
avatar
1688 forum posts
16 photos

Yes Vic you may have a 100 amp supply but what about all the other premises on the same supply line, could the cabling cope with everybody drawing close to 100 amps, I fear not. Cabling in most locations would need to be updated to cope with the projected loads, this will all take time, which I fear has not been programmed into the timescale that is proposed. I see a similarity here to the upgrading of computer systems in many public departments that went horribly over budget and time and cost billions more than was budgeted. Dave W

Nick Wheeler17/07/2021 13:35:55
1227 forum posts
101 photos
Posted by Peter Ellis 5 on 16/07/2021 14:07:51:

No-one has mentioned gas for cars. My Hyundai Santa Fe runs on propane at circa 50p/litre. It is popular here, with no shortage of gas pumps. It might be a practical interim solution.

Twenty years ago that might have found some traction. But the number of filling stations that supply LPG has fallen dramatically over the last couple of years; so much so, that a number of advocates of LPG I know no longer use it because it's impractical

Roger Best17/07/2021 20:44:09
avatar
406 forum posts
56 photos
Posted by Anthony Knights on 17/07/2021 06:38:54:

I definitely have an old system. There are FUSES in the consumer unit. There is a recently installed metal housing fitted with a circuit breaker which supplies the central heating boiler. It has to be metal because circuit breakers have been known to catch fire when they fail. That's progress I suppose.

If they wanted to update my house (and all the others on the street) to 100amps, they would have to dig up the road and fit bigger supply cables which could take the load.

Get in quick then. Who wants to be last in that queue!

Paul Kemp18/07/2021 23:09:04
798 forum posts
27 photos

SOD's perception of free energy for the taking is not quite there. I have been involved in a project to green up marine transportation for the last two years. Yes there is technology available however it is not equivalent to diesel in terms of asset utilisation or in capital cost and the vast savings predicted in running costs are not coming through either when considered over the life of the equipment. Battery prices have come down proportionate to performance coming up but most of the big battery manufacturers I have spoken too agree this has reached equilibrium and won't change significantly now until solid state batteries are perfected and marketed potentially still 10 years off (their words not mine)

Power supplies where they are needed are also not there, massive capital cost to extend them to POU. You can argue that can be written down over many years but the cost of power is also important when compared to existing fuels. The change to green needs huge investment and that cost is going to filter down to you and me like it or not. Investors only invest to make returns!

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the energy business, none of this is going to be anywhere close to free!

Paul.

Paul Kemp19/07/2021 00:25:21
798 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by Roger Best on 17/07/2021 20:44:09:
Posted by Anthony Knights on 17/07/2021 06:38:54:

I definitely have an old system. There are FUSES in the consumer unit. There is a recently installed metal housing fitted with a circuit breaker which supplies the central heating boiler. It has to be metal because circuit breakers have been known to catch fire when they fail. That's progress I suppose.

If they wanted to update my house (and all the others on the street) to 100amps, they would have to dig up the road and fit bigger supply cables which could take the load.

Get in quick then. Who wants to be last in that queue!

Try asking your power supplier to upgrade your supply and see how much they quote you! BIL has just had a green car imposed on him by his employer, house has 100a incoming, on that he was limited to a 3.2kW charger (will take between 4 and 5 hrs to charge the vehicle), it's a plug in hybrid and has a range of 40m tops on electric including on the run top up from regen brakes. Car not rated to use fast chargers in any case so had he been able to have a larger one at home the vehicle won't take it and no opportunity for a fast top up at the supermarket or other fast charging station. Cheapest energy deal he found is 4p / kWh between midnight and four am. However to get that the standing charge is significantly higher (he didn't share how much or I wasn't listening) he has evaluated the costs between his old and the new vehicle. Sure he will make a saving in fuel if he can get a full charge at 4p / kWh (which isn't exactly that as you have to factor in the higher standing charge and he can't get it long enough for a full charge) but at average domestic electricity prices and if he had to factor in costs of ownership such as eventual battery replacement it doesn't look so rosy! One question, with all the cheap renewable energy now out there has anyone seen their electricity bill decrease year on year unless you are making your own?

Paul.

pgk pgk19/07/2021 05:54:31
2661 forum posts
294 photos

Presumably some specific reason why he's limited to 3.2KW charging - such as just plugging into a 13A wall socket? Most home chargers are 7.4KW unless there's access to 3 phase (and the car can use it).
I have no chance of a 'smart' meter with zero mobile phone signal out here so my best tariff is 16p/KWH but with an average summer/winter range of 240 miles on a full 100KW battery pack that's better than 80 miles per gallon equivalent on a large car. The model3 does that on 75KW battery and the newer version of my model will do 300 mile average on it's 100KW pack. Granted depreciation of a new expensive vehicle is a big drop so it comes down to annual mileage and how long one keeps the car. Few new car owners keep them for 8+ years which is the battery warranty.
I also only have a 100A supply from which a 60A line goes to my hobby shed and 50A to the barn where charger is and the house itself. It’s a matter of common-sense not to have the car charging at the same time as immersion heater, kettle, cooker, welder all running at the same time. For most folk it'd be a rare day they need a full battery recharge every night but would have access to 8-10hrs of low domestic use.

pgk

Speedy Builder519/07/2021 06:37:16
2878 forum posts
248 photos

I can't remember what they are called, but I have seen several houses over here in France where the demand of the house is limited to the supply line by a relay device in the fuse box. When the house demand reaches the supply limit, all electric heating is "Throttled back". The electric heaters have 2 positions on them - Confort and Eco. Wiring to the radiators have 2 live wires, one for comfort and one for eco plus the normal neutral and earth. The switch is independent of the live supply and allows the user to manually throttle the radiator back.

I see no reason why the car charging point couldn't be fed by such a device as domestic demand is usually less at night.

Bob

Samsaranda19/07/2021 09:28:40
avatar
1688 forum posts
16 photos

I live in a small close of 22 houses and the garages are located remotely from the houses and are without power supplies so an EV is currently not a possibility until power is laid on to the garage, which although the underground cables are fairly close, will be an expensive project. I recently, 3 years ago , invested in 4kwh of solar panels on the roof of our house and on sunny days like those we are enjoying currently the panels produce in excess of 25 kWh per day, this means that all laundry and dishwashing and baking can be completed with free electric if the timing is right. 2 years ago I added 7.4 kWh of batteries which provides a useful buffer when using a lot of energy during the daytime period. It also means that invariably I have full batteries when the sun goes down so some nighttime use is also free energy stored from daytime. Another bonus is that during the winter months, because I have an economy seven tariff, then I can programme the batteries to charge overnight on cheap rate and then use the stored cheap rate electricity during the daytime. The overall effect is that the cost of our electricity has dropped by a significant amount from what it was prior to the solar panels being fitted, so I am glad to be getting some relief from the charges levied by unscrupulous electricity providers. Dave W

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