Member postings for Paul Kemp

For me, needs to be easy to get too, ie not in the centre of a densely populated area with the associated traffic. Needs either ample parking adjacent or be on a reliable public transport route (is there such a thing these days….). Entrance fee needs to be reasonable / proportionate to what is there to see, arbitrarily say £10. Catering, if it’s a decent show and there is enough to hold your interest for more than a couple of hours then somewhere to get a reasonably priced bacon roll, sandwich or cup of tea / coffee. It really irks me when a bite and a drink costs more than a tenner!! Given most model engineers are of advancing years, plenty of seating around the place to be able to stop, take stock and watch the world is a good thing.

Exibits; I fully appreciate the skill and patience to produce a “gold medal” exhibit and I enjoy seeing what has been achieved however they all look a bit glass case, sterile if you like with no oil stains, coal dust in the bunker or on the footplate. So I equally like to see the more knocked about examples that you can see do a job of work, that might have a few file marks on the rods rather than a polished mirror finish indicting the builder was a mere mortal! In terms of types of model I am happy to see loco’s, traction engines, machine tools, machining fixtures, stationary engines, boat / ship models, planes, dioramas etc. clocks don’t really float my boat but I can appreciate the work in them and can happily watch the wheels go round for a few minutes.

Demonstrations; Having had Mr Shelley attend our cub and do a foundary demo, if there is a suitable outside area that would be good. A portable track so you can see loco’s in action and traction engines running. A lasting memory was seeing a diesel roller running at Midlands show a few years back, OK you could have seen it on a table inside, but to see it running was something else. Machining demo’s are another interesting thing. One thing I have never seen is a brush painting demo, that would be good. Lectures - may also be interesting although I confess I have never attended one during a show, possibly because the programme was not well circulated in advance and I didn’t know what was on until I got there!

Trade stands; Appreciate this is a difficult issue for traders with costs etc. However while I like to see the exhibits I also like to get “up close and personal” with tooling and supplies, the interweb may be great with fast deliveries etc but when you are looking for something to solve a problem there is no substitute for actually being able to see the goods. I don’t think I have ever been to a show where I have not purchased anything from a trader, I guess my average spend up to 2019 was around £100 across various suppliers. I used to go with a list and collect what I could and always bought something that wasn’t on it, because I had seen it! Show deals even if they were not great discounts were always a good deal when considering the postage and packing charges saved. This was one way to justify to myself why it was a good idea to drive for four or five hours to go to the event in the first place! You get to see what others are doing, meet up with people you haven’t seen for a while and as a bonus go home with some new toys and renewed enthusiasm.

So there you go, fancy organising something in the South.

Paul.

Steve,

I would say you have found your problem. Yes, would explain the poor fire when regulator open and also the air leak would not help raising steam in the first place.

Paul.

I remember Seymour Halls, they used to run the boats in the swimming pool if I remember right and I bought some copper tube for my Juliet from Kennions there.

Ally Pally was a tortuous journey for me by train (and the train is expensive), with the free parking driving was a doddle at the right time of day but I would think twice now having to pay the emissions charge. Midlands show is a fair step for me and last time I went, probably 2018 I thought it had gone downhill, the larger trade stands already starting to cry off and there didn’t seem to be many new or different models.

Personally I think the future is probably small events organised by individual clubs, if indeed clubs manage to carry on, our own seems to be in decline, as older members pass on there doesn’t seem to be younger people joining at the same rate!

Paul.

Fundamental first question; is the satisfactory running on 15psi of air achieved by pressurising the boiler and using all the plumbing, or was it the bare chassis that was tested so? If the former it points to a small leak in the smokebox that under steam is destroying the draft. It doesn’t take a big steam leak in the front end to kill the draft and deaden the fire. OP doesn’t state what the fire looks like as the pressure is dropping, is it bright and looks like it is drawing well or is it dull / black? First thing I would do is look at what the fire is doing, is it producing enough steam? Sounds likely to me to be a leak that is killing the fire rather than an issue with the running gear.

Paul.

Bob,

Lagging the steam pipe won’t do any harm but it’s unlikely to provide much practical benefit either. You need a good thickness of lagging to make a significant difference to the heat flow, you can’t scale nature. To get a significant benefit the thickness of insulation required would be vastly disproportional to the pipe size. I imagine the objection to your comment was the inference lagging is compulsory, for this application it might be nice to wind some “string” round the pipes but it’s not going to make any noticeable difference to the performance or greatly increase the efficiency. It’s an optional nice to have, not a must.

Best regards,

Paul.

Very nice, making a good job of that.

Paul.

Howard,

There were some eminently sensible suggestions made in this thread on how to approach this in a safe manner including the use of the hand pump to carry out a hydraulic test. This is hardly an unknown device, OP made it clear the builder, his grandfather, had built other boilers in the past and it’s fairly obvious just from a cursory visual inspection of the pictures that the standard of workmanship is excellent.

”work out the risk if a small boiler fails” that is hardly a relevant statement, you have done your best to highlight what happens if it fails, you note the possible extreme consequences in some detail. However, the risk you should be considering is what is the probability of failure! As I am sure you know to do a formal risk assessment you identify the hazards, you then determine a likelihood of occurrence and then apply that to the severity of the consequence. If the risk is high then you apply mitigations. Doing that on the fly (a dynamic risk assessment) and applying the mitigation of a simple hydraulic test gives me a very low risk.

I am very sorry to hear of the fate of your colleague but clearly the risk assessment for whatever he was doing failed, either there was no procedure from a formal assessment, it wasn’t followed, was inadequate or in its absence there was no dynamic assessment made. You give no details of the incident to link its relevance to this situation beyond it was a pressure vessel that failed. Unless it is directly relevant then it’s not suitable for discussion here.

Boiler safety in general is not solely governed by a successful hydraulic test and visual inspection on an annual basis it also depends on the operator of the boiler and how he manages it between inspections - rate of firing / steam production, feed water quality, quality of daily and periodic inspections etc.

What is being discussed here is little bigger than a Mamod which apart from an initial inspection at manufacture has no other inspection regime and is in fact designed to be operated by children. A compressor from a DIY outlet that is a few years old and hasn’t been looked after is a far higher risk than a boiler probably less than 2 bar litres (to be determined) and the risk associated is reflected in the minimal requirements of the MELG small boiler code.

You have highlighted the potential consequences so you should consider your duty done, there is no need to continually try to justify it.

Paul.

Matt, have fun, I am sure it will run well, it looks a cracking set up. Beware though I am sure there will now be a raft of dire warnings on gas safety……

Paul.

Fully agree with Luker. Given the obvious high build quality it suggests the builder was well aware of what they were doing so I would be surprised if there were no safety valve and suspect it is as Luker suggests.

Range of the gauge is no reliable indicator to working pressure. Gauges are best sized for operating pressure to be between half and two thirds full scale deflection, so that suggests 60 - 90 psi. However looking at the engine I very much doubt it needs 60psi to do its work. Use the hand pump to carefully raise the pressure and see where and at what pressure the water escapes if nothing comes out by the time you reach 100psi do some investigation! Given the size of the boiler, depending on its working pressure it is likely to fall under the “small” boiler code.

As to the scary words, the mode of failure of this size of boiler, should it fail is unlikely to be catastrophic resulting in the projection of shrapnel! Be cautiously careful rather than hysterically scared! A one off or periodic hydraulic test is no absolute guarantee a boiler is “safe” unless combined with a good visual inspection. There have been plenty of boilers successfully hydraulically tested that have later failed in service due to localised pitting or wastage!

Enjoy your grandad’s efforts.

Paul.

Some raw formulae you can use here for guidance. As the intro suggests if you want greater accuracy refer to Rourke. Obviously you have to adjust for copper not steel (assuming you are using copper). For a tube plate it can be complicated!

https://roymech.org/Useful_Tables/Mechanics/Plates.html

Paul.

With gear cutting I “waste” a bit of time on the set up by scribing a line on the blank at the centre of every gash using a scribing block on the mill table and doing a full rotation. Allows a very easy verification on each index. Probably only valid for my type of big chunky gears but when cutting a large gear over multiple sessions it provides reassurance everything is still in the right place! Takes a little longer but still quicker than doing it again when it goes wrong!

Paul.

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings? As he points out (not that it really needed pointing out) he is one bloke in his shed pleasing himself and not into mass production or even limited production runs but one offs! I have known a few people over the years that have customised bikes, cars, trucks and even built steam engines without drawings, it’s not uncommon. Often it yields good results.

From a brief read this thread appears to represent the worst of this forum where a post gets turned into a willy waving competition and where opinionated ex spurts impose their view of the world. The guy is amusing himself, getting the results he wants so why the need to chuck bricks?

if you can’t find it in you to say anything good, better to say nothing!

Paul.

OVO are useless at customer service it took me close to a year to sort out an issue with my mother’s electricity account and to get them to acknowledge an LPA. Phoning is useless in the main, although it was part of the process to get the complaint escalated to their “special” team. It took countless emails and the threat of legal action to get resolution but she did get compensation for the distress caused. The only way to success is in my experience patience and persistence, be very persistent and don’t be fobbed off! The basic operators have no clue, you need to get escalated and get a dedicated point of contact to make progress.

Paul.

Elizabeth,

Ok that’s all good, now the situation is clear it’s easier. You could also try contacting Peter from Hawkins Inspection Services. He is based in the South but travels all over.

Paul.

OK, this may be granny and eggs if as you say, you have experience of steam engines but here goes;

You have 2 routes to getting your boiler tested, the club route (which you obviously know about) and the commercial route. However both have pretty well the same requirements in terms of basic history of the boiler which so far you haven’t mentioned.

Let’s assume (dangerous) this isn’t a new boiler? Also given it’s a 4” that it is steel? If it is not new then hopefully you have at least the most recent expired certificates? That is good because it evidences the boiler has been tested before and you will know if it was done by a club or by a commercial independent inspector? Ideally if you have that information you will also know if the boiler was commercially made or made by an individual. In both cases hopefully you have a portfolio of information about the boiler like material certificates, welder certification and initial shell test?

If it’s a new boiler that has not been previously tested and you have no evidence of material certificates for the plate and tubes and evidence of welder qualification for the person putting it together or an initial shell test, you might be on a sticky wicket! If you have no information you need to look at the boiler to see if there is a manufacturers plate and boiler number. If you can identify who made it then you can contact them and hope they can provide duplicates of the basic information.

The first step is to examine the information you have and let that guide you on the way forward, if you have history of club tests, great you will probably find your local club will take it on. If it has been previously commercially tested then your best bet may be to continue down that route. If you have no or limited history you may find a commercial tester is more suited to guide you. Whichever route you choose the first step is to discuss it with the chosen inspector and present any evidence of previous tests / constructional detail you have.

In terms of preparing for the test itself, when was it last hydraulically tested? If it was a commercial test that would have been valid for 10 years and to revalidate the inspector will likely require removal of the cladding (thin sheet cover and lagging beneath that runs from firebox to smokebox). If it was a club test then unless the last test was for a new boiler it will have been valid for 2 years - if the boiler is 10 years old or more and you can’t demonstrate the cladding has been removed in recent history a club will likely require its removal also.

The hydraulic test will be a thorough cold examination perhaps involving taking ultrasonic thickness readings in various places, inspection of all threads in boiler bushes (fusible plug thread will be of interest) and possibly putting a camera inside to visually check for corrosion. All the boiler wash out plugs, manhole door, clack valves and other fittings should be removed for inspection. Once this is completed the plugs, fittings and doors are fitted, minus the pressure gauge and safety valve (you will need a blanking plate for the safety valve or if they are screwed in which is unlikely on a Burrell, plugs) which should be blanked off and the inspectors gauge and pump will be connected, the boiler filled with water expelling all air and pumped up to 1.5 times working pressure. If the regulator doesn’t seal you will need to blank that off too.

Assuming that is satisfactory the boiler will then be steamed to ensure the water gauge, safety valve(s) pump and injectors are all functional and if so - you get your certificate.

While the comments above and the line taken by your local club are understandable it is worthy of note that the boiler test is to test the boiler, not the competence of the operator. Neither a commercial inspector or a club inspector will take the engine from you, test and return, they will expect you to present the boiler ready for inspection and then put it back together and steam it up. If you don’t have the knowledge / competence to do this then there are several commercial companies around that may assist for a price and also offer you some basic training.

Try Legacy Vehicles, Berrybrook Steam, The Steam Workshop, John Rex Models to see if they can help? Caveat I have no personal knowledge of any of these suggested companies or association with them so these are not recommendations, merely suggestions for you to research.

Final point is for a club to test your boiler you have to be a member. Most clubs are wary of people coming along asking for boiler tests unless they have a good feeling you are interested in joining and will contribute to club events. If that is not you, go the commercial route. Final final technicality is you can’t have one test (hydraulic or steam) on one scheme and the other on the other scheme. So you need to choose which route you go at the start and stick with it.

Hope that helps.

Paul.

For safety I would make the spigot currently an interference fit as a clearance and silver solder so you get full penetration of the joint. As an interference with a solder “caulk” the solder will add no strength. If you silver solder so you get penetration nothing will break it asunder!

Paul.

Mark,

14kWh x 36 houses is just a smidge over 0.5MWh. There is more than 36 houses in my road and it’s not a long road, probably average for the town. You can say “well not every house has a car” true but some houses round here have 2 and some 3, so I am happy to work on an average of 36 cars per road. Mr Google says there are 407 streets in my town. So no matter how you play it or when you actually charge, peak or off peak that’s an additional 205MWh that without changing cars is not required.

Average consumption per house per year (BEIS 2022) is 3,731 kWh (10.22kWh per day if there is still 365 days in a year). Personally I find that quite low but I have no idea proportion of flats to houses and no inclination to seek it out so let’s go with 10.22 kWh with no other “evidence” available. So an additional 14kWh is a 237% increase in power usage. No idea of the spare capacity of transformers or cables but an increase like that sounds pretty heavy to me? Most houses in centre of town are Victorian with 60a incoming

Paul.

SOD, my point was on the evidence and nothing to do with any debate on climate change being real or otherwise. There were a lot of figures quoted but no reference or source data provided for a critical reader to check. The cost reductions for solar - may be true but the 1000’s of per cent, where to check that? 1/3 of global energy coming from renewables may also be true, if it is why is this achievement not being acknowledged in green circles where most speculation is renewable targets are being missed? You say yourself fact based verifiable evidence is king, where do the numbers this guy is quoting come from? If he put some verifiable references into his presentation it would add credibility, otherwise it’s just a story you might see in the tabloids. I do hope the predictions on electricity cost to the consumer are true though, I hope I am around long enough to see it!

Paul.

Well I did watch it, I don’t have time to fact check it but like the gentleman’s other videos I think he has combined some statistics to present the result he wants. There are other factors in play that he fails to mention.

Paul.

From an OEM training course GM developed a 2 stroke diesel based on the 6V92 for greyhound busses in the states that had an oil charge from new and you were just supposed to change the filter every so many hours. The filter allegedly contained a new additive pack to “refresh” the oil. No idea if it caught on, never actually came across one in the UK! I might still have the spec leaflet on it somewhere that they gave us.

Paul.