Vickers 8" howitzer complete

I think it's an amazing looking model.

Furthermore, can I warn off the detail police a little as a result of my own experience. I admit that I am very much a beginner when it comes to making things, even though I have been employed as an office mechanical engineer for 28 years. A few years ago I was interested in joining the Maidstone MES, and was seriously thinking of making an LBSC 'Rainhill' having cut my teeth on making a sextant to my own design. To the detail police at MMES a sextant wasn't a model, so contributed nothing to my limited stock of machining knowledge, and then I was collared by some total bleep who explained to me that I couldn't make a model without re-machining every nut to make it properly hexagonal. After that welcome, I decided I had better things to waste my time on.

I may make a Rainhill eventually, but it will never run at MMES.

Regards,

Richard

Yes there are too many rivet counters amongst Locomotive fanatics who don't realise how they come over, they are a real turn off.

Jo

I find this concern with other folks opinions very strange. My objective is to make "stuff" to the very best of my ability. I may not be as able as others but I wager that I get as much satisfaction from my efforts when they turn out as I intended as they do from theirs. This is a HOBBY - done for relaxation and fun - no one else's opinion is important UNLESS you wish to enter into a competitive forum. Then, especially with the very high levels of expertise about, there has to be closer inspection and extreme attention to detail becomes important. In my book life is too short!

If the club member at Maidstone was serious in his remarks to a new/ potential member then he does his club a disservice. My experience of clubs ( not just ME) is that , whilst you get a mix of types, most are friendly and helpful. There is much to be gained from associating with like minded folk so maybe give them another try?

As far as the Howitzer goes I'm afraid guns leave me cold but it IS a valid subject for a model and it looks pretty well made to me. More time and cash spent could, no doubt, produce a "truer" replica but the only person who needs to be satisfied with its "authenticity" is the one commissioning the work.

Norman

Edited By NJH on 28/11/2013 17:19:43

As ever, where ever go or do things there are 'Eletists', I get this when I deal with people with the bees. Their bees always produce 100lbs of honey a year and they never swarm, When you get to the nitty gritty they mostly talk bees and not do.

As always a coat of paint will cover up most of the faults and give shape and shine and shadow to soften all the edges, revel in a job well done and sit and admire it.

Clive

A club is a collection of people with common interests and attitudes. This means some clubs won't suit some people, but by teh same token clubs must be as varied as people.

I have visited both Derby and Burton societoes with my little shunter,. I am all to aware of its shortcomings, but I was welcomed and congratulated, even though i could see the standard of other folk's work was far higher. If the first club you visit doesn't fit, try another.

Neil

I do find very puzzling the use of the term "rivet counter" used in a pejoritive sense, not just currently on this forum but going back over many years. Why should trying to achieve a perfect result or trying to help someone else to do so be treated with derision? As Norman has commented, Model Engineering is a hobby which we're all entitled to persue in our own way; and if your choice is to attempt to create a totally accurate replica of the real thing then why should that objective be mocked? Surely it should be lauded? And if you try, in good faith, to point out an error to some one would you expect an adverse reaction. As it used to say in the old "Teach Yourself" books, "GIve instruction to a wise man and he will be yet wiser". My own work is no more than average but when I see some super detailed and accurate model at an exhiition I don't snort "rivet counter" and become filled with resentment, rather I think about the research, dedication and hard work that's gone into it and become determined to try and raise my own game. Where's the merit in mediocrity?

Furthermore it's not just (some) "locomotive fanatics" that try to achieve excellence. Look at the way the small scale electric railways have changed over the years with their increasing fidelity to prototype. The same applies to model aircraft and no doubt other modelling disciplines. Well over twenty years ago I recall rivet counter comments in the correspondence columns of the model railway press but by comparing a "Railway Modeller" magazine from those days with the later "Model Railway Journal" magazines you can see how far the "rivet counters " have pushed the boundaries.

As to the Howitzer, it's a fine piece of modelling by any standard and the owner should be justifiably proud of it. I've no idea if it's true to scale or not and it's not really important but nonetheless if someone in a position of knowledge is able to make a valid and constructive criticism then where's the problem? That's how we learn and such criticism shouldn't necessarily be seen as arrogant or insulting. If someone points out an error in my work I'm glad to be told and will try to correct it. Better than having my head left in the sand because they don't want to upset my delicate sensitivities.

On occasion Clint Eastwood has commented that "A man should know his limitations". Maybe knowing our limitations we should be cautious that we don't become resentful of those who are less limited and maybe fearsome of being put in the shade a little. Don't forget, it's said that... "we come to hate what we fear".

Michael

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Michael,

I think it fair to say that this usage is applied only to those "Anoraks" that know only how many rivets there should be [etc.] and are keen to say so in "Stage Whispers" with much tut-tutting.

Constructive criticism, from "people who can", tends not to attract derision or cause offence.

MichaelG.

To me, rivet counter is synonymous with 'nit picker' - i.e. those who go out of their way to find fault, rather than those who strive for perfection.

Neil

Neil, when a nit picker/rivet counter annoys me, I just ask him/her about there model or what ever, if its about one of my hot air engines, I just ask "how many have you built", usually they have never built a thing. Ian S C

I think models are very personal things. it's down to the individual if they are happy wit their model. Anyone can find fault with anything. Its probably down to personality; you are either a guy who see the good or you see the bad in things.. Frankly im glad im a guy who defines things by their positive attributes

I can still remember proudly showing my rebuilt Tribsa ( full size) to an "expert" . The plug leads should be black for that year , he said. Did it bother me?

Well Gordon - it seems that you remembered it!

I find it sad that someone has to overlook the good due to an obsession with the colour of plug leads or the number of rivets - what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them?

A good reply  to your critic might have been :- " Yes of course the standard for that year was black but, as an expert, you may remember that the first 3 produced used  *pink* ( insert the colour you used)  and this is a true copy of the second of those. ( or something similar)

Norman

Edited By NJH on 30/11/2013 10:49:19

Criticism/being a critic is the easiest job in the entire world

Any fool can be a critic and the internet abounds with it

Useful Constructive criticism is more difficult and requires some genuine experience and effort

I like the residue on the breech screw - that's attention to detail!

Mark

Personaly I'dvery much welcome any criticsm the rivtet counters or not are willing to provide on anything I've built. One should be confident enough in anything they have built to there very best of there abilitys, and you should be able to seperate the worthless comments from the ones who are honetly and really trying to help.

My dad always told me you can even learn something from an Are*hole. He thought it was how not to be an are*hole. But to be honest, just maybe some of us are maybe a bit too thin skinned? They are just 'words' after all. From my understanding, there's some very severe 'rivet counting' in any of the major M.E. exhibitions in the U.K. I haven't read many questioning the judges comments for any of that style of competition.

I'll bet there's very few here that don't look very close at any picture of almost any model and not see a few details they might do different.They just might be not quite honest enough to say so here, but there still thinking it. Builders such as Cherry Hinds, Chris Vine, and more than a few others here including the likes of Graham Meeks, any many many others are a bit different than us mere mortals. But I do think we can all learn at least a little from some of those "rivet counters". I would think at least 90% of them are trying to help in some way. Were all not the best at expressing our honest opinions sometimes. Many times people mean well but are taken totally wrong.

But perfect or not, this Vikers is a very interesting and vey high quality build. I really appreciate the builders efforts and his pictures and posts. I could be incorrect, but due to past comments about other "cannon" bulds in the late 90's and ino the early 2,000's, I think the M.E. magazine is not publishing anything like this any more. We really should appreciate this thread for what it is.

Pete

Edited By Pete on 30/11/2013 12:30:23

I was puzzled at the time of my original question posted on this thread, and I'm still puzzled, this time at the reaction. I thought there'd be more support for my views but apparently not, though it's worth remembering that this forum has, in common with many others, only a small hardcore of regular posters who don't necessarily represent the views of the silent majority. Looking at the responses there appears to be an element of defensiveness and I wonder if my posting was fully read. Careful reading will reveal the essence of my views.

"Trying to help someone to achieve a perfect result."......."pointing out an error in good faith"......"someone in a position of knowledge able to make a valid and constructive criticism"

Having considered some of the responses, I'll make the following comments, stressing that there is no personal criticism of the poster or his models/etc or his abilities. None is implied or should be inferred.

"How many have you built, usually they've never built a thing" Ian S.C Well not withstanding the fact that "usually" is a bit of a weasel word the suggestion appears to be thus "you haven't built much/anything but I have.so your views are not valid". Do you need to be a professional footballer to see if a game is well played? So if you employ a decorator to hang wallpaper are you not able to expres your dismay or approval of the the job because you've never dipped a brush into a paste bucket in your life? The world has many academics and experts who are not practical men/women. How many architects have built a building. How many naval architects have hammered a rivet into a piece of plate. "I've made models and you haven't " could even be seen as elitist.

And from Norman "An obsession with the colur of plug leads or the number of rivets - what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them" Well remember that everything in this life is relative. That which is your norm may well be considered by someone else as "obsessive behaviour by someone who's got nothing better to do with his life." I've heard this comment expressed about stamp collectors, bus enthusiasts, trainspotters etc etc. The comment is slightly offensive. Michael G in his more considered reponse uses the well understood albeit colloquial term "anorak" A pejorative term often used about railway enthusiasts generally. of which there must be a good number on this forum including myself. I believe that Michael G's views are probably in line with mine but in view of what I've read in some postings I feel that he's being a little optimistic in his final sentence. Norman's final comment, effectively, "just lie about it" is, I assume, tongue in cheek.

Ady1's final comment is perfectly valid though I would add "knowledge" to the list of critic's required qualifications and "uninformed" prior to the word critic in his first two sentences.

And in a posting prior to mine - "As always a coat of paint will cover up most of the faults and give shape and shine and shadow to soften all the edges. Revel in a job well done and sit and admire it"....Clive. Is that really the advice you'd give to a modeller Clive? Please say it's tongue in cheek. And if I may be a bit tongue in cheek myself and introduce an element of levity, were you a used car dealer in a previous life?

And last but not least Pete. Well said Pete, you've put it in a nutshell. "Personaly I'dvery much welcome any criticsm the rivtet counters or not are willing to provide on anything I've built. One should be confident enough in anything they have built to there very best of there abilitys, and you should be able to seperate the worthless comments from the ones who are honetly and really trying to help." Yes Pete,that's the way forward.

I think that maybe George Thomas is smiling down from somewhere.

Michael

No Michael, never a car salesman but I have chipped off a lot of paint and found some horrors underneath. Painting a model particularly a military model brings out its purpose, the camouflage and the earthy green gives it the right image and needs little imagination to see it in action.

I have made several military models, models of Thunderbird ground to air missiles, 1 I left natural Alu. the other I sprayed matt black and they had a totally different look and aspect.

I made a model of a field cannon and made the wooden parts dark and brass as natural, unfortunately it was stolen.

Another was a model of a ground to air photographic missile that was pre-programmed to fly out and return and then parachute down. This was for a presentation to a retiring Officer. He was very pleased with it.

familiarity with the item you are making allows a greater insight into what is achievable and how it should look.

Bobs model is a nice model and deserves a place to be admired not only as an example of gun used in the Great war but also in its uniqueness as a one off. I still say it needs a coat of paint.

Clive

Michael

You obviously have strong view on this and you and I may well have different approaches to the hobby. What I do is only to please myself and I certainly don't wish to criticize others efforts.

Any criticism though should always be balanced and constructive - I've certainly overheard some very destructive comments at exhibitions from those who might be termed here as "rivet counters"

So it seems that that we at some variance - that's OK but I would only ask that when you quote me you include the whole quote viz :-

I find it sad that someone has to overlook the good due to an obsession with the colour of plug leads or the number of rivets - what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them?

I find all life full of imperfections and that it is better to emphasize the good.

Regards

Norman

Looking at the photos above I am reminded of "the smoking gun", but must say this is the only one I've seen with its own packet of fags.

Peter.