4Jaw Chuck workholding
David Clark 1 | 14/09/2010 17:45:04 |
![]() 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
Just back the centre of slightly before breaking through.
Again, I have never done it on turning but have on milling and grinding and double sided tape has a much stronger grip than you would think.
regards David
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Tony Pratt 1 | 14/09/2010 20:36:41 |
2319 forum posts 13 photos | Can't comment on the dangerous practice as no photos have been forth coming and I don't subscribe to ME. As to parting with a centre support I have done this a number of times, as David says just back off before it breaks through and you should have no problem. I have also used double sided tape for surface grinding Stainless Steel with great success, just keep it cool as otherwise you could have a "flyer" on your hands as the adhesive softens!
Regards,
Tony
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Baz | 14/09/2010 22:46:57 |
1033 forum posts 2 photos | I feel that I must agree entirely with Crewmech, this article is aimed at beginners, correct practices should be followed. In years to come people will look back at these articles for instruction and this bad practice, because that is exactly what it is, will be perpetuated. I was fortunate to do a proper engineering apprenticeship and if I held work in a similar fashion I would have been sacked. I also went on to run my own business for many years and if I had seen an employee carrying out this dangerous practice I would have sacked him on the spot. I do not care what any of you get up to in your sheds or garages, it is when you commit your dodgy practices to paper and publish it as beginners articles that it matters. Regarding the double sided tape, the steamchest cover should have been gripped in the 4 jaw and faced, then reversed in the chuck to face the other side. Shame on Mr Hall for his bad article and bigger shame on the editor for allowing publication.
Baz |
John Olsen | 15/09/2010 06:30:36 |
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles | Well here in faraway NZ I am still waiting to see the pictures to find out what the fuss is about. I did think that the original post read very much like a windup...I was surprised that it was not signed "Mother of three" or some such. Not that I want to condone bad practices either, but hey, these articles are generally written by amateurs, working with limited equipment, and often with limited experience and limited photographic skills too. It is pretty certain that from time to time one of us is going to do something a way that seems OK, and someone else is going to know, possible from bitter experience or even the school of hard knocks that this is not the way to do it. "A soft answer turneth away wrath" and gentle correction will get better results than ranting. The other thing is that as amateurs with limited machines, we sometimes have to do things in way that would not be acceptable in a production environment That can be OK, so long as you have figured out the risks and how to mitigate them. For example if there is a risk of the job coming out of the chuck or other fixture, the operator should make certain that s/he is not in the line of fire, and nobody else should be present. Turning crankshafts between centres, especially with clamped on offset pieces, is a job like this. Speaking of which, a while back now Anthony Mount described turning on a delicate little crankshaft between centres with no support between the webs....It surprised me, and I wondered if I should comment, because one thing that crankshafts love to do is wrench themselves out from between the centres and hurl themselves at your forehead. Pretty well every lathe book...Sparey and so on... will tell you how to support the webs to reduce the chance of this happening. But even with the best of care there is still some risk. I must have had the need to part off without centre support well ingrained into me, I find it difficult to use a parting tool to make grooves when I have the centre in. Something keeps saying "Don't do that!!!" even though I know I am only going to go in a limited amount. (eg making ball handles.) But often the really big risks are not so obvious...even when someone tells you, it does not seem as if a piece of shaft turning around and a loose sleeve could be such a big danger does it? Some things need to be demonstrated. Grinders are probably one of the biggest potential hazards in the workshop. It always gives me the willies when I see used wheels come up at club auction time. On the double sided tape thing, I have just recently read the Quorn articles, and Professor Chaddock was roundly taken to task for this in an article that was also extremely critical of the whole design a month or so after the series finished. It does require care, but I beleive that the tape can give as much grip as a magnetic chuck. regards John |
Nicholas Farr | 15/09/2010 07:45:47 |
![]() 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Still no explination why one believes its a dangerous practice then.
Regards Nick. |
HasBean | 15/09/2010 11:09:40 |
141 forum posts 32 photos | I've just received this issue this morning and having looked at the photos I'm afaraid I can't see the problem. I've seen this method of workholding advocated many times in various books and publications and have used it myself (I must add I have no machining background as such).
If anything there would appear to be greater jaw to work surface contact than if placed otherwise, so as long as the jaws are tight against the work what's the problem?. It's all well and good to say it's 'dodgy', 'dangerous' or 'bad practice' but can someone please explain why? Paul |
J A Harvey-Smith | 15/09/2010 11:21:50 |
8 forum posts | I can't speak for the originator of this thread or anyone else, but there is one potential failure mode with the method shown in figs 30-32 that does not apply to the more conventional setup of fig 29. For the benefit of those unable to see the figs in question, in fig 29 we see what might as well be a rectangular work piece held in a four jaw chuck with each jaw bearing on a flat surface about half way along each side. With the chuck tightened by a normal person, not a gorilla, there is just about no normal event that could cause the work to shift in the chuck - you should be able to machine this piece with confidence. Figs 29-31 show a rectangular work piece held diagonally in a 4 jaw chuck such that the work piece is pinched between the sides of two pairs of jaws, close to either end of the work. Even with the chuck tightened by gorilla, application of sufficient side force would shift the work piece in the chuck. This method has its uses and in some cases can only be avoided by using a bigger chuck/lathe! |
Andrew Johnston | 15/09/2010 11:44:26 |
![]() 7061 forum posts 719 photos | Here's my two pence worth, and a quick stir of the pot! I don't think I'd part off completely using tailstock support. However, I do use tailstock support when partially parting off at a distance from the chuck. I've added a photo (my first upload!) to illustrate this. For reference the item is cast iron, 3.5" inches diameter, and is on a stub mandrel. I think the speed was about 350rpm. The use of double sided tape, or wax, or resin, are well established techniques within professional machining for grinding, milling and, less commonly, turning. Of course the item is less firmly held than with clamps, but it is often the only way to hold some items. I have an item in my current work related design that will almost need the use of double sided tape. It is a plastic sheet 4mm thick, and 300mm by 400mm, that needs to be mostly milled away to a thickness of 1mm, leaving a series of 3mm projections. Doubled sided tape would seem to be an ideal way of holding it down and ensuring a consistent 1mm base thickness over the area. It's telling that neither of the two posters who have objected to the said workholding have actually give any reasons as to why it is dangerous. I suppose that the item could fly out of the 4 jaw chuck, as it may only be held by friction with the chuck jaws. But this is not much different to milling a part parallel to the vice jaws. I'm cynical enough to think that the fact both of them would have been rusticated/sacked for doing this says more about the intransigence of both unions and management of the time rather than possible dangers. In the 'good old days' you would probably have been sacked for changing a light bulb too; 'cause that's an electricians job, and that's a different union. Regards, Andrew |
Rob Manley | 15/09/2010 12:30:37 |
![]() 71 forum posts 14 photos | You sir need to clean your lathe before taking photographs - it gives the impression that people actually do stuff instead of moaning In the age of the risk assessment and 'who can i sue' it is going to become increasingly common as the ex-industrialist (because let’s face it, children from school have no experience now) becomes the normal geographic within our hobby and demands 'best practice only' to be published without criticism. We have to face it, people in our hobby are limited by materials, equipment, space, and sometimes experience. We are not taking massive cuts, swarf hitting the wall across the room etc. but can sometimes take hours boring a hole, taking minute cuts that would make a professional machinist blush because that’s what our machines can handle. A good friend of mine started in this hobby with a single book by LBSC. It contained phrases such as 'chuck it in the lathe' and other rather non-descript instructions. Now, what do you do? Throw the job at the machine? probably not. Common sense prevails and after placing the job in the chuck with plenty sticking out you move onto the next sparse instruction only to find that you have too much sticking out and the job chatters or worse, you have a prang and bend the bar. So, you move the work piece closer to the jaws and continue trial and error style. How exactly did these people survive with so little precise, distinct instructions? Maybe they didn't. Maybe that’s why 90% of people at exhibitions have white hair? Photographs within articles say more than words ever could, but should not be taken as 'the way to do it' instead should be seen as the way the author has done then due to his circumstances and equipment. A quick warning about double sided tape. My windowsill is my graveyard of projects. Where prangs, mistakes etc. go to reside for the rest of their lives. On that sill are two disks which were held together and the diameter machined. They are still stuck together after 6 years. Tis good stuff. Wear safety glasses, fit an easily removable - non frustrating machine guard if swarf is airborne, enjoy and make stuff. If it goes wrong, try and try again. (couldn't post from word using the button as I get a forbidden massage?) |
NJH | 15/09/2010 12:55:36 |
![]() 2314 forum posts 139 photos | Given that 10V / 10H series is aimed at beginners this thread is very useful. Harold does emphasise in his "Top tip" that this is an unconventional set up and the care that needs to be employed when using it. The very strong position of the first post ( whether you agree with it or not) has prompted a very thorough look at the method and the overall view is clearly that it is a useful technique when used carefully. Surely this sort of exploration of pros and cons is just what the inexperienced machinist needs? Safety must always be paramount but working safely requires an appreciation of the risks. It is better not to discover these risks by accident ! Regards Norman Edited By NJH on 15/09/2010 12:59:30 |
Andrew Johnston | 15/09/2010 13:02:09 |
![]() 7061 forum posts 719 photos | Hey! The lathe is clean; I've added another photo to illustrate a dirty machine. The pile of aluminium swarf is over 4" deep. I knew the small shovel I made in 'O' level metal would eventually come in useful for something! Hmmm, for some reason the system has decided that the emotions area is forbidden. Ah well, I'll just have to stick with plain English. Regards, Andrew |
chris stephens | 15/09/2010 13:28:22 |
1049 forum posts 1 photos | The trouble with time-served machinists is that they are taught to follow instructions and not question the whys and wherefores. The claim that some machining practise is bad but unable to say why, smacks of this outmoded teaching method. I seem to recall that after WW11 the excuse that "I was just following orders" is no longer an excuse and we must think for ourselves.
We, as largely self taught Amateurs, are free to make our own rules based on what actually works. The ends truly do justify the means, well they do in my Engineerium!
Note to self, must put up a sign over the door that starts "abandon hope all ye who enter here." to warn off visitors.
![]() chriStephens
PS Andrew, the emoticons are still there , but you have to go to the top of the page, each time, to get them.
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Stovepipe | 15/09/2010 13:31:32 |
196 forum posts | As an article I read many years ago said, "Think what would happen if the tool slipped, and be guided accordingly". Common sense would appear not be allowed in many cases. I would suggest that the vast majority of lathe users would apply a measure of savvy, would not necessarily follow literally an example in the magazine. Having just pricked my finger on a piece of thin wire, I won't do that again, and I don't need an "Elfin safety adviser" or someone of that ilk to tell me what to do.
Just seen Chris Stephens post - should notice read "any safety advisers enter these premises at their own (high) risk "
Dennis Edited By Stovepipe on 15/09/2010 13:37:08 |
Tony Pratt 1 | 15/09/2010 17:23:02 |
2319 forum posts 13 photos | As a time served Toolmaker I totally disagree that machinists just follow instructions and don't question anything. When you are training apprentices this perhaps would be the case for safety's sake but any decent machinist has to be aware of the whys and wherefores of each and every job he undertakes in order to make it in the most efficient and safe manner and hopefully not scrap too much!
I actually said to my 18 yr old son on Monday that I could only show him the basic lathe techniques and it would be up to him to build on it.
Tony
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Nicholas Farr | 15/09/2010 18:51:00 |
![]() 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | "Even with the chuck tightened by gorilla, application of sufficient side force would shift the work piece in the chuck." by J A Harvey-Smith.
Didn't read in the text; plough into it and get this bit done and out of the way. I think if you were to apply the amout of force required to shift the set up in the photos, you shouldn't even be using a lathe. The use of the tailstock centre support is mentioned and shown. This is said for "added security" which makes it even less likely to shift sideways even if your cut was a bit to heavy.
Still not covenced that it is a dangerous practice.
Regards Nick.
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David Clark 1 | 15/09/2010 20:21:36 |
![]() 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
I have the small book about building the Stuart 10.
This is the updated version by Andrew Smith.
This shows the same operation on the side of the steamchest as Harold has done.
The only real difference is that Andrew used the 3 jaw chuck.
regards David
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WALLACE | 15/09/2010 20:38:35 |
304 forum posts 17 photos | More likely scenario is Harold would be on the phone to Stuarts for a new casting if it had come loose ! That's usually my benchmark for doddgy practices - learnt by bitter experiance - the longer time it took to machine / expensive / irreplaceable the item is, the more clamps I put on it to make sure it doesn't move.
Then add an extra one, just in case.
W. Edited By WALLACE on 15/09/2010 20:45:43 |
Sean Cave | 15/09/2010 22:13:02 |
9 forum posts | Gentlemen,
I hadn't received my copy of Model Engineer when I read the above somewhat heated discussion. When it arrived I hurriedly turned to Harold Hall's article to see what horrors were depicted therein. I have to say I was rather disappointed. The method of workholding illustrated is, I feel, quite a normal one for the model engineer who is often confronted with having to deal with awkward castings with his somewhat limited equipment. it is a method I have used successfully many times myself.
Such a practice would naturally not be used in production, since tasks are allotted to machines designed to deal with them. As for supporting work in the tailstock whilst parting off is taking place, I have often found it handy to prevent the piece parted off from falling down into the coolant tray. I have never suffered any misfortune as a result.
Can anybody tell me what all the fuss is about?
Sean Cave |
chris stephens | 15/09/2010 22:32:36 |
1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Sean,
In answer to your last sentence, could it be the OP has no imagination or alternatively it could be he has too much.
Anyway the outcome is that it clearly worked for Mr Hall, so it can't be all that bad!
chriStephens |
Versaboss | 15/09/2010 23:19:31 |
512 forum posts 77 photos | Well that ME issue finally arrived here also today, and I did the same as Mr. Cave above. We have a saying here 'I laugh a hole in my belly!' I wonder that nobody mentioned that in this operation maybe half a mm or if you prefer a 1/32" of that butter-soft Stuart cast iron is removed, and this possibly in 2 or 3 passes. Even if a 3-year old would have tightened the chuck, it would be sufficient for that. I often have to face both ends of some 60 x 60 x 150 mm steel lumps, sticking almost full length out of the (4-jaw) chuck, and up to now none of them went ballistic! (no tailstock support possible). Greetings, Hansrudolf |
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