Surplus subjects learnt at school.

I am sure that the proportion of the population who would argue that point is increasing.

As time has gone by I have found subjects I could not see the point of have become more important, and the ones I thought important less so.

I would love to know Latin, both to read all those old inscriptions and return a cutting response in Latin to some one who spouts it when trying to seem important.

I agree Football, complete waste of time, along with trying to hit balls with sticks, running round ovals.

Edited By AdrianR on 19/07/2019 22:03:00

SM,

You are at liberty to disagree, but please just read my post exactly as it was written. I used the definitive article and was clearly referring to my school, not any other random establishment. My reference was to a singular item, not the whole system. Specifically the school I attended. The Royal Latin School, Buckingham. Specifically the years mentioned (the wood/metal work teacher actually moved from the secondary mod next door to our new school buildings for the start of the 1964 year).

All was not ideal, for sure. I had a too-narrow scientific education. I still don’t appreciate the arts as much as I should, but that might be considered my problem. It’s likely why I carefully analyse reports and note the failings of same. Great if they add up, but I like to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s.

My precise use of the english language has caused disagreements before, but I think my description was accurate and referred to my particular grammar school and I was comparing it to the (adjacent) secondary modern school. Indeed, fraternising with the secondary modern students was not only frowned upon but actively discouraged! (didn’t work, mind, because where there was a will, there was always a way). Only from 1965 did any students get transferred from the secondary mod to the grammar for ‘A’ level courses. A very few had been transferred at the 13+ stage prior to that point, of course.

I took it upon my self to do night classes in metal work while still at school and that has proved a wise decision. Also in the days before calculators we had to learn how to use a slide rule and don't think I've even since leaving education.

I can't think how you got up to 14 o-levels. I can only remember 9 subjects and that included two English. I don't count speaking my mother tongue as still using a school subject but do notice that my vocabulary is in advance of most people at work, even the ones who are English, which is partly due to my knowledge of Latin. BTW you needed 'Use of English' as an extra exam for Oxbridge.
I have never needed much Maths to be a professional engineer and cannot really think of anything I was taught in any subject after the age of 14 that has actually been necessary, including 3 years at University. My electronics skills are all self taught.
Woodwork was an extra curricular and they had never heard of metal. I guess there were people doing music, divinity, art and languages other than French at o-level but I never noticed.

However I do not decry a good education, including University as I have always said it is essential to keep irritating youngsters out of the workplace as long as possible.

I also ditched Latin and took up German instead.

It had been drummed into me that Agricola amat Puella ( the farmer loved the girl?) which wisely taught me not to leave my daughter unattended when on holiday in the Italian countryside. Not sure the towns were any safer in that regard, so maybe the problem has spread into the cities since the days of Caesar?

German has been of some value when visiting countries to the East of France where German rather than English tends to be their second language.

I went to King Edward VI Grammar school in Southampton, between 59 and 64. We sat 14 "O" Levels, the only subjects I was any good at were Maths, English, Tech Drawing and Woodwork, passable at Physics, Biology. After leaving school I found myself studying pretty much full time, albeit on a part time basis up to my mid 40s. The only thing that I was stumped by was Calculus, funnily enough when I was a ships Draughtsman I had a need for it, and got a "Calculus for Dummies" book which helped!!

All in all although I didn't enjoy my time at school at the time, my dear old Dad was quite right when he said that I would look back on my schooldays with fond memories.

cheers

Bill

My school only let the lowest streams take lessons in the woodwork/metalwork shop and i'd have way preferred to be doing that than latin - which was the only exam I ever failed. I did top up to the standard 8 O-levels by addng Art O-level while taking my three A's,
Nevertheless i agree that Latin did give a grounding in understanding grammar and the root derivation of many words. Perhaps classical Greek would have rounded that out.

Well

I failed the 11+ and went to secondary modern school as they were called back then and ended up in the lower streams as people refer to them, had four hour lessons of woodwork, craft or gardening, a few maths and english lessons and of course Welsh, no Latin or Greek for us.

I really hated school, I had/have a severe stammer which everyone found quite funny including the teachers so was always the fool in the class, but I got through the four years and got myself a place on a pre- apprenticeship course at a local college of further education, end of year got myself a choice of four apprenticeships, picked the toolmaker one as recommended by a neighbour.

Failed G1 and ended up on MECP course, which my lectures thought I was more suited to and so it turned out I have been a toolmaker for 52 years, never been out of work, always earned good money. and always loved the job which is quite important.

Colin

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However did you fit 14 subjects into the timetable, I remember my limited range being enough what with the horrible rugby and athletics wasting hours of the afternoon.

Sad thing is once you get A levels nobody cares about your Os and once you get a degree the As are of no consequence.
But put something on a social media site, especially if controversial, and it can haunt you for ever apparently. I expect something like 'media studies' is now a common GCSE subject and perhaps the one todays kids won't have considered surplus when they retire.

OK not at school but at ten years old I actually BECAME a surplice subject when mother insisted I joined the church choir.

Rik

My embarrassing Latin unseen translation involed a long paragraph about the wings of the army sweeping across China and several words with which i wasn't familiar.
Sadly I mistranslated the first part as a bull in a china shop and made the rest up as it rampaged through breaking various plates and vases rather than sacking towns and villages.....

In retrospect, none of the subjects were 'surplus', although it didn't seem like it at the time. Some of the teaching was, however, dire: how is one expected to learn a language from grammar text-books and vocabulary lists? What is the point of being expected to be able to recite 'the dates' of the kings and queens of England? However, I wish I'd paid more attention to the non-science subjects that didn't come easily - they seem so much more interesting now. I was told to 'try harder', but what did that mean? No-one ever explained...

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 20/07/2019 10:47:18

That's fair comment half-a-world and a folded Empire away, but I find that, although my knowledge of dates is in some cases imprecise within a decade or two, I do have a reasonable view of the main movements of history as a result - though of course from a strongly British perspective.

At the time,however, it seemed deadly dull and gruelling when Fat Harry dished out a list of dates at the start of a lesson, we spent half the period learning it, then the second half doing a written test. <where's the yawn emoji, then?>

I don't think that any O-level(whatever they are now) subject is surplus, because they're still at the basic principle stage. So a useful education requires a range of subjects:

Humanities are about looking at data and expressing conclusions clearly and concisely - the actual subject is unimportant.

Languages develop skills in doing that. No school can teach a foreign language the way you learnt your native one, so it's done in a structured way of introducing vocabulary and grammar.

Sciences are about how the world works.

Maths. Arithmetic is a day to day thing, and everybody should have a grounding in how numbers are used to bamboozle them.

Practical subjects - these teach how to use tools to solve problems. Once you've learnt that(wood/metal/needle/etc- work) you'll be able to try anything

Sports. Should be about learning what you can do, both as an individual and as a team. Probably the worst taught subject.

Yes, that's all ideallistic but you've got to start somewhere.

Heinlein summed it up: Specialisation is for insects.

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Like Colin Brannigan above I failed the 11+ all so, our Secondary Modern was just like the one Billy Casper attended in 'A Kestrel for a Knave' but without all the frills. In wet weather (most days in Cumbria) the first years spent their time 'on bucket patrol' that is too say positioning/emptying buckets underneath the leaking roof. At that time if you were thought capable enough a suggestion would be made to your parents along the lines of ' he/she is capable of attaining some O levels but the county won't pay for them and they will have to be sat outside school time so if you can afford the fee it may be a good idea'. Needless to say most of us left at 15 or 16 without any qualifications just 'A good standard of secondary education' asked for by the two largest employers in the area.

Latin no, but I'm quiet good at industrial swearing.

Guy

At Grammar school, I hated French and Religious Indoctrination, football was avoided by getting lost somewhere else, summer was athletics.

English Literature was boring and famously said, when asked what was my favourite novel? I do not read fiction!

Woodwork but no metal work, but maths (all sorts) and science subjects were the best. For some reason (probably cost) we were not allowed to take more then 10 "O" Levels.

First of all, my apologies to NDIY for misreading his post.

On the subject of Latin, I was in the Latin stream from 2nd form to 5th form. We were taught (with varying degrees of success) both Latin language and Latin literature.

The only remaining trace of the latter is a line from Catullus, 'Alas, my purse is full of cobwebs'. Now, why ever should that line have remained in my memory?

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

I was involved in education and found myself co-opted onto an exam board looking to update the school curriculum. This was mostly because I had been a very outspoken critic of the inclusion of things like Latin and Greek. This was in the late 80s and PC computers were affordable.

It seemed to me to be very obvious that touch typing would be a useful and transferable skill and should be taught in schools. I also put forward that cursive or joined up handwriting should not be taught as part of the general compulsory curriculum but as an option.

I put this forward at large meeting of school heads. It was not well received. In fact about 3/4s of the hall stood up and HOWLED at me. It was as if I had proposed vivisection on the school cat.

It was amazing how many of the heads followed up with handwritten letters in beautiful cursive insisting on the retention of cursive in the school curriculum.

My suggestion was not adopted.

But over the years I have watched with interest the dropping of cursive as a compulsory subject and touch typing creeping into the class room.

I was also involved in looking at alternative routes into degree level courses with a number of admission tutors. It rapidly became clear that of all the topics required maths was almost the only one that could not be successfully taught in remedial classes.

I am part of the group that think that there is a time in the brains development during which the language of mathematics can be acquired. It is around 12 years of age. Few people older than 16 can successfully acquire a good understanding of maths.

I watch with some despair as the maths syllabus is dumbed down in many schools and even universities.