Time for a name change?

Did two of these last week, no picture but these are two I do a few years ago.

Not easy to do manually to get the profile equal on both and the engraving to follow on.

Blank turned on the manual lathe then swapped over to the first X3 that got converted to CNC when ARC used to sell the kit, so not even a commercial or production machine.

No programming time as it had already been done and paid for. 45 minutes to do the profile and engraving which did require a tool change but I was doing something else.

I bet they said the same things about cameras and paintbrushes.

Neil

Going further.

Who mines their own iron ore ?

I said the CNC manual millers I came into contact with were useless, not all CNC millers.

Yes, it can take longer to program a component than to make a manual component, it is all different now, all programmed on a computer. 20 or so years ago we programmed manually and a couple of days to write a program was not unusual.

Conversely it is often faster to program and make a one off than it is to do it manually. Depends on the complexity of the program.

My argument is that if designers did not use computers to design these complex components we would not need computers to make them.

A typical CNC job I did was replacement parts for a Nimrod. One batch of these were about 18inches long. They were surfaced all over, nothing was flat. The people who made the computer drawing (no paper drawings existed) had literally taken a part from an old Nimrod and put it on a CMM to produce the drawing. When they made the original Nimrod I doubt they had surfacing facilities. I think I was making brand new components that were 30 years old.

I had been working on these components for 3 weeks on nights and I came in for my shift and one of these so called CNC millers had skimmed the bottom of the components flat as they were distorted. No it wasn't distorted it was correctly surfaced. He had scrapped 3 weeks work. Not my problem fortunately.

As expected there are some interesting points of view on the subject but some folks have lost sight of the fact that this is "Model Engineer" not "production engineer" or "jobbing engineer".

I have old hat Emco cnc machines, Compact 5 lathe and F1 mill, both operate using G&M codes either manually entered on the control panel or downloaded from a computer.

In reply to Roy the following 4 lines of code take less than a minute to enter and will face the end of a bar and turn it down on diameter for the given length. The program below is in Incremental mode but could also use Absolute mode, or a mixture of both. The tool is at known diameter and on line with the end face.

M03 Start spindle (0,3,-,INP) 4 keystrokes at panel

G X Z F H (code, X axis/cross slide, Z axis/saddle, feed rate, division of cuts)

G88 -1000 -100 100 50 Facing cuts 2 passes at .50mm DOC to face off 1mm total at 100mm/min

G84 -200 -2100 100 50 Longitudal turning 4 cuts of .50 DOC reduce diam by 4mm for 20mm length on bar.

M30 END of program, also stops spindle.

G88 and G84 are both cyclic codes and the tool returns to the origin after each cycle. It's possible to change spindle speed and feed rates during the program run.

Having used manual machines for many years and cnc for a few my vote is for a mixed machine workshop, like most thing it's great to have a choice.

Emgee

I must admit that I find the OP view disappointing and myopic. It would appear he thinks that hobby should only consist of using hand tools and manual machinery, and anything that smacks of automation is heresy. As other posters pointed out CNC, especially home/hobby type has moved skill into different areas.

I do sometimes wonder if this sort of die hard attitude to anything is one the reasons for the decline of the hobby, I see quite a number of clubs have the word 'Experimental' in their title, but I do suspect quite a number of their members would accept any thing only on the pain of death.

I accept that the title of 'Model Engineering' for the hobby is a bit of misnomer and we should take broader view rather than the literal meaning, but the important thing to remember is that it is a hobby and we partake it in to enjoy our selfs. So whether you prefer spending your time twiddling the handles of your lathe or banging away on the keyboard, it really does not matter as long as you are enjoying yourself. The only thing I would ask is that you respect that other people have different view of the hobby, as you would expect them to respect your view.

Regards Luigi

ME has multiple subsets covered in the magazine -

TEME - Traction engine model engineering
CME- Clock model engineering
BME- Boat model engineering
LME- Locomotive model engineering
and so on.

If you want to change the name you could follow the Americans with Home Shop Machining.

I think it would be really bad for us, the consumers, to encourage any such divisions as that makes the publishing house managers think they can spawn another magazine for the speciality. That dilutes the original ME, sucks advertising revenue out of our suppliers and subscriptions from us for what is a fairly limited and only just adequate number of authors.

For me its simple ( Like me ), I want to produce a model that is pleasing to me using whatever skills I have to hand ( or can learn ).

I would get no more pleasure spending 2 days crafting a part which I could produce in 4 hours using Vero and a Hurco,

Cnc to me is a fantastic development, I work in a factory which employs high speed machining and 5 axis laser cutting, etc, etc, and I find it all fascinating.

and when i am called to the latest smash up in the press, and I have little to no time to reverse engineer all the broken bits back together I am quite happy to reply on the modern approach.

Roger - I would suggest (nicely, no malice intended) that the expression "walk a mile in my shoes" applies here.

How many of the detractors of CNC have actually:

1) used manual machines to make things,

AND

2) used CNC machines to actually make things?

I would expect about zero of the detractors of CNC have actually produced things from both CNC and Manual.

I think that Brian (in your quote) is simplifying things somewhat - for instance, the learning of the skills required to make it look easy is always a time-intensive, educational process.

As Martin, JohnS and others have said - they are all tools, and we use them to produce our models/products/whatever.

Another JohnS.

... well that got the sort of replies I expected and woke the place up for a few minutes

Having heard some very expensive machining centres being set up I know that David Clark made a good point early on.

Speeds, feeds, cutters etc have to be chosen and cnc as far as I am aware doesn't really offer anything at all in that direction. It still needs a skilled setter especially if it's being used for manufacture as time costs money, as does the machine. CNC in this respect isn't much different to old style auto's and capstan machines etc. They need a setter and an operator as in many cases a person who is sufficiently skilled at setting would have little interest in actually operating the machines all day churning out parts. CNC in real terms removes the need for a semi skilled operator.

Not at our level but cnc can be more flexible. One single machine can mill and turn and even grind. The grinding was an attachment on one smaller machine I have heard of but in real terms that could be built in too. However there is some indications that cost wise special purpose machines can beat them or even old style labour intensive methods at times. That area was also likely to use special purpose equipment. I suspect the bean counters don't like employing people who can design them.

John

-

Hi JS, Just noticed that in an earlier post you said that there are no apprentices trained on manual machines these days, all cnc, Well I beg to differ, because one of me brothers [who is a foreman turner ] at his employers all the apprentice turners and millers are grounded on manual machines first then move on to cnc 3/4/5 axis

All the manual machines are DSG, Bohringer, Cincinatti, Parkson , the cnc ones are a real Dolly mixture of , DMG Mori Seiki, Gurutzpe ,Hermle , Waldrich Siegen and WFL, They are used for making large, to very large, oilfield components. That concept might be a rarity now but thats how it is there , and they produce some cracking operators. Many have went on to start their own firms , so it does still happen.

cheers.

It is definitely a question of perspective. I look at CNC as an immensely useful and beneficial tool for every purpose, be that at work or home, but it is not my personal interest to use it. I think if everyone used it the hobby would be de-skilled, but not in so much as CNC being less skilled but the ability to make things by hand would be lost over time. CNC requires a different skill set, many of the skills needed for manual and hand work are simply not needed and it cna be used to make geometrically complicated components vastly more easily and efficiently than by hand. At the end of the day this is a hobby, not a job, and it is personal preference and interest that dictates. I do a lot of CNC at work where it is indespensable, but none at home because my personal interest is in older technology and hand skills.

And Raymond yes, you are right. That is still done for the most part these days, at least everyone I have been. Colleges teach with manual machines, you go onto CNC after a grounding in what they term the "basics".

I can imagine that early in the twentieth century there was similar argument when electric motors were being stuck on lathes, replacing the foot motor. The CNC machine is just another tool that is available to the model engineer, along with 3D printing, I don't suppose there are too many who have their own water jet cutting plant(yet).

Ian S C

If one reads my posts carefully, something rare on this board I think ? You will see I'm not advocating CNC over manual or manual over CNC but say that we should accept the new technology as it arises.

To many people are putting their own prejudice's forward as the views everyone should take.

That is not the way, there will always be a divide, much like the metric / imperial argument but all one needs to do is see both sides of the argument and then make you mind up how it affect YOU and not preach.

I think that is well said John and Ian S.

If say 15 to 20 years ago you had gone to the Model Engineering Exhibition at Wembley or Ally Pally and some one had stood up and given a lecture and said that in 15 to 20 years time into the future a Model Engineer could easily have a CNC lathe, CNC milling machine, laser cutter and a 3D printer in his little shed he would have been burned at the stake as a heretic.

And before someone pops off about cost, add all those 4 things together and it's less than I dare say many on here, me included have spent on a new car, or in my case "The Donald ™"

Another 2 years and that will be ready for the scrapyard whereas all 4 items I have mentioned will probably well outlast me.

The most valuable commodity we have now is time. Without getting personal or morbid as you get older it runs out quicker. There is no longer 24 hours in a day as they were when we were younger.

When we were younger we could do a lot in 24 hours, but as we get older and slow down then we can't fit it all in a day. Some days I only manage a 5 hour day

We have more trappings around us that require attention. Two cars to clean instead of one. I'll bet many of us can remember early on living in rented accommodation where it was the landlords job to do the upkeep.

Now we have bettered ourselves from the two up, two down, arse on the step putting your boots on on the pavement. However it all takes time.

I'll bet we can all remember skiving off into the shed [ never had workshops them ] 4- 5 nights a week and probably part of the weekend. Doesn't happen now does it ? And we won't mention IKEA or Dunhelm Mills.

This is where the new technology can help. Take CAD, many here use it and it's not got the Darth Vader reputation like CNC although it's only 2 steps away. So you sit there at night whilst DeadEnders is on the BBC because if you skive off again it doesn't go down a bundle. So even if you have drawings, transposing them into CAD gets the part in your mind and you do all the mental moves ready for when you cut metal by what ever method. This will probably save you time in the shop and also you should be getting good at spotting pratt falls before you scrap a part.

Very well put Ralph.