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Eric Cox	13/10/2011 09:40:53
557 forum posts 38 photos	When looking through ME for that next project, one thing that is missing from articles is an approximation of build cost. Having a limited budget the last thing I want to do is start a project and then find out I've got to fork out X pounds for castings or a boiler etc. Could authors of bespoke projects give an indication of build cost somewhere in the article.
Tel	13/10/2011 09:44:51
157 forum posts 28 photos	I should think that that would be a very difficult thing to do - given the wide price fluctuations we see these days. Not only that but many of us 'archive' these projects and may not start until several years after publication, rendering any estimate invalid.
Laurence B	13/10/2011 10:35:28
58 forum posts	As Tel says,this might be a difficult thing to do,and then we model engineers would probably moan even more when the actual costs came in above budget,allowing for inflation etc. Model engineering,in my recollection has never exactly been a cheap hobby,and I think we should bear that in mind when thinking of embarking on some new project.
ady	13/10/2011 10:57:44
612 forum posts 50 photos	A definitive list of everything you will need to build a particular project should give even a new user a reasonable idea of what costs are involved
Gordon W	13/10/2011 11:26:52
2011 forum posts	I've often thought that a materials list would be a good thing, not a full, technical, list, but the larger bits, any castings, special or hard to get stuff, etc.. This would also give a chance to gather and "aquire " stuff in advance.
Weldsol	13/10/2011 12:15:52
74 forum posts	I think a general materials list would be a good idea to generate outline cost , but to add to that you must also take into account what tooling you may have to purchase i.e. drills / taps and that odd size endmill that you have not got it all adds to the cost Paul
SteveW	13/10/2011 16:41:41
140 forum posts 11 photos	What is NOT helpful is articles that say 'I used a huge chunk of brass given to me by a friend' or 'I found this in the scrap box'. I don't have friends with secret supplies of brass or a scrap box with that size in it. Some projects are very expensive if you source material all as new - just like a beginner would have to do. So an idea of cost would be a help even if not perfect. SteveW
JasonB	13/10/2011 16:44:21
25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles	But would we all want the first 10-20 pages of a new build series taken up with a list of materials? Just as an example Stew Hart's overcrank had 2 1/3 pages given over to the list of parts, how long would that list be if it were say the Darjeeling or a similarly large project. There is also the fact that the builder may have used what was to hand so pricing up could be difficult. What about nuts and bolts you may only need two of something which some may have already but others may need to buy in packs of 10 or even 50 what cost goes in the mag, that of the two or the whole pack of 50? J
SteveW	13/10/2011 17:45:59
140 forum posts 11 photos	I thought we were trying to help a beginner? Anyone who is going to start on a locomotive will probably not really need a complete list. Even so an ideal of the castings cost may be useful. I'm usually shocked anyway! Perhaps a list (if available) could be on the website? SteveW
Gary Brooke	13/10/2011 21:42:02
28 forum posts	Hi as a begIner my self I can see how hard it is to cost a project. Does the author make allowances for mistakes and ways off working . Some might use castings whilst somebody with more knowledge might fabricate apart. Over the length of a project costs are spread out. So start and buy as needed modeling on HP Regards Gary
Stub Mandrel	13/10/2011 21:59:36
4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles	When I started, I made my first, rather strange, concept of a steam engine from bits and bobs - it just worked but fell apart! I then realised to learn real skills it made sense to take the traditional route of a Stuart No10, 'by the book'. There are few truly complete kits like that, with all the fixings. But do keep alook out for handy lumps of scrap. The pillar on my grinder is from a stub of dural scaff pole I found on a roundabout, other parts came from an old dot matrix printer and a random sheet of 3mm steel found in what is now my workshop when we moved in. I made great use of some steel bar from the base of some old display boards when I was starting out. If you embark on a big project keep you eyes open for useful lumps, but buy the bits as you go along. Always keep your 'short ends' and never be ashamed to peer into scrap bins and bargain boxes. Sometimes it's 'what can I do with this lump' that inspires a project, not the other way around! Neil
Nicholas Farr	14/10/2011 00:58:41
3988 forum posts 1799 photos	Hi, I have been fortunate for many years to be able to pick up odd cut off bits of metal and lumps of useful scraps from my job. I have to agree with Niel somewhat about lumps of metal, scrap of otherwise, and a bit of inspiration. Below is a couple of pictures of scrap parts, that I have made use of. The first one I used to make a new bit for my Hobbymat lathe, the result can be seen in my Hobbymat Lathe Refurb album. The second one I used to make a replacement gearbox end plate, the result of which can be seen in my Nicks album. I know not everyone is lucky enough to be able to pick up bits like this, but with a little inspiration, I'm sure a lot of people will come across useful items with usable sized bits and pieces on/inside them. just have a look and think what you might be able to salvage off things before you take them to the recycling centre. Regards Nick. Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/10/2011 00:59:58
Richard Parsons	17/10/2011 17:21:40
645 forum posts 33 photos	Gordon I agree with you entirely. I have 5 projects ‘stopped’ for lack of materials One is within for a 250 mm length of steel which I can only buy here in Hungary from Germany –reason zoning- in the UK, France etc I can get it from the U.K. The Germans require my VAT registration number the UK do not need it. I think the message has not gotten through. Projects 2&3 are waiting for about 150mm of 3mm steel. I bought all my local supplier stock (5 meters) about 3 years ago. I went to the cashier and paid for it. I spotted the packing ‘Gorilla’ coiling it up for me when I yelled ‘NEM’ the (Hungarian for no) he took no notice and squeezing the end up and twisted it like a coiled bootlace. I chucked it on the floor and walked out. The Gorilla chased me with it shouting and brandishing it and a length of 50mm bar. I hopped on my scooter and lit out like a jack rabbit dogging through the gate before the Gate Goon could close it. Project 4 is waiting for a bearing. The Hungarians have found the idea of ‘Minimum Order quantity and I can only buy a full pack of 50 of them. Project 5 (to cast and build a ‘Box Plainer’is shelved for the same reason I can only buy 50 x 2 litre cans (These are packed in 4s). Work it out for yourself they have to ‘break bulk’. I am now waiting for two more items of information before I start to cut metal, the crank shaft OD and the Cylinder max OD and length. This is for the 5cc CI engine in ME. I have the rest in a metal box locked and well hidden.
David Littlewood	17/10/2011 17:47:47
533 forum posts	Richard, I must admit your post surprised me. I have no personal knowledge of Hungary, but... I can't understand why the usual UK suppliers of material to us MEs could not deliver to Hungary. Indeed, for this to be prohibited by any national law would be a breach of the fundamental EU principle requiring "free movement of goods, people and capital". And as to why a German company would "require" a VAT number from a (presumably) non-trading private citizen is incomprehensible (mind you, much of what passes for logic in that country is similarly incomprehensible). Surely you could find some way round these artificial barriers? David
Richard Parsons	18/10/2011 11:34:41
645 forum posts 33 photos	Many companies have divided Europe into ‘Zones’ for distribution purposes. The German distributers very often do sell direct to the public, they only supply ‘companies’. Their systems are designed to do this. Other companies will not allow distributors to ‘poach’ on another distributor’s territory. I cannot get inch size bearings from the U.K. and they are on ‘special order’ in Hungary (MOQs of up to 100 pieces) only if the Hungarian dealership can be bothered to order them. Hungarians always have 10,000 reasons ‘why not’. The most significant is the word ‘Too’, as in “Too late”, “Too early” etc. The U.K. distributers who can supply inch sizes (ex-stock) are not allowed to sell them to me despite the unwillingness of the local supplier’s to do so. Some retail suppliers will ship anywhere but the problem is you order 3mm round stock they send 1/8” etc. There is another reason for ‘Zoning’ which is quality assurance and local consumer protection laws. In Western Europe Consumer Protection laws are very strict and often stringently applied. Other places this is not the case. Locally even European Directives are ignored. We are in ‘Hungary not Brussels’! As you know appliances are ‘graded’ during production. Those that are ‘first rate’ are sold in the West. Those that are not so perfect are sold elsewhere and those that only just work are often sold in Hungary. Two years ago I bought a small compressor. It came straight from the box. It was tried and I found that a notice sticker started to bulge on the air receiver. I switched it off and returned it the same day as I bought it. It has taken two years to get the thing replaced. The importer welded up the crack in the air receiver. I refused the repair as I wanted a new receiver and the weld was not done by a qualified coded welder. They tested it whilst I was elsewhere in the company’s buffet. I heard a loud phut the air receiver had peeled open like a banana. Because of the E-mails I sent, I got a new one shipped to by the manufacturer from Taiwan. The ordinary Hungarian would have got nowhere.
Ian Parkin	18/10/2011 12:06:36
1174 forum posts 303 photos	Richard Do you have a friend in the uk that can buy the bits for you and send them on? I would be happy to oblige Or can I not post anything on to you because of rules? Ian
wotsit	18/10/2011 19:55:53
188 forum posts 1 photos	I support Richard Parsons comments completely - I live in Romania, and have the same problems he describes. It is not even possible to buy a small piece of chipboard here (OK - I know its not engineering, but it is illustrative) - if I want some chipboard, I have to buy the whole sheet 250cms x 120cms - bulk-buying rules here! Richard has also not mentioned postal cost issues - I have mentioned this in other threads. Postal costs quoted by suppliers in UK to this part of the world are scandalous. I have been quoted over 30 pounds for a 1kg package from the supplier - my brother eventually sent it - uninsured - for a fiver, but of course loss or damage is a risk. Yet I regularly order items from Germany, and the postal costs are extremely reasonable. One company I ordered from sent a 30 Euro order, with a postal cost of just over 4 Euros by courier to me in Romania, but the courier company wrongly charged me 50 Lei (about 10 Euros) for delivering it. I mentioned this to the company, and they promptly refunded the money to me at their expense - makes the UK look a bit sick. The other side of the coin is that I know of a metal supplier here in Arad, where I can get many things I cannot source in any 'civilized' western European country (or not easily), and sometimes the prices are crazy - I can get sheets of copper 1x2 metres up to about 2mm thick, for next to nothing. Steel or S/S bar and rod in nay size or cross-section is no problem, large pieces of brass, and so on. Yet I cannot get copper rivets for anything, so I buy copper rod (in large bundles) and make my own rivets. Silver solder is a complete mystery to Romanians - I have been offered silver rod (also at a very reasonable price - less than the cost of silver solder in UK ) because thats what they thought I meant. As Richard says, a materials list would be useful - you don't just start a project (at least here), without considerable forethought.
wotsit	18/10/2011 20:03:53
188 forum posts 1 photos	After re-reading the thread - just another comment - as\|Richard emphasizes, this is Hungary (or Romania in my case). It may well be EU, but corruption rules here - there is no way to get EU rules of any kind supported for the benefit of the common man. I draw your attention to the newspaper allegations at this time (18 October) about a Romanian judge on the EC Human Rights Court using his powers to prevent an investigation into his wifes corrupt activities, so the average consumer has few rights here. That said, not all East Europeans are corrupt - we have had some good experiences.
Lawrie Alush-Jaggs	19/10/2011 10:58:29
118 forum posts 32 photos	I thought that one of the things we learned as we grew up was how to price things. Certainly in the workshop, you draw up your plans and then see what bits you have available and which parts you need to buy. That goes for materials and tooling. If you can afford you do it, if you can't you don't. I don't think that at our end of engineering costing the job is the province of the writer of the article. It may be fine for recipes one gets in magazines at the supermarket, but not the amateurs workshop.
Bogstandard	19/10/2011 13:27:02
263 forum posts	How difficult would it be for someone to say, overall cost, roughly £260 or £470? There are plenty of arguments for NOT quoting figures, but what is wrong with quoting a rough guesstimate. Surely you know a rough cost of what you have done and how much it cost you to do. I personally think it is a very good idea, if the rough cost was shown fairly early on, I might not have to read through the whole lot before kicking it into touch. John

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