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Washers

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Frank Dolman08/12/2009 16:35:29
106 forum posts

     When should one put a washer under (a) a nut (b) a bolt head?
KWIL08/12/2009 16:43:31
3681 forum posts
70 photos
Are you trying to spoil the paintwork/marr the metal surface both ends?
chris stephens08/12/2009 18:22:34
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Frank,
The right size washer can go under both, but do  please keep it in proportion to the head.

 You can of course leave one out altogether, the historical precedent for this is given by the late Colin Chapman of Lotus fame. When watching one of his minions assemble a component with a washer under a nut, he was reputedly heard to say something to the effect of  "take that f---ing washer off, I am not paying for it to take a free ride around the race circuit", but then we are not quite as concerned about our creations weighing a few extra grams .
chriStephens
Martin W08/12/2009 18:32:25
940 forum posts
30 photos
Hi Frank
 
Depends what you want the washer for.
 
Plain Washers, generally are used to protect the parts being bolted together and can allow a certain amount of movement between the parts. They also to some extent tend to spread the load and can take up small irregularities of the surfaces being joined, i.e. they can bend/deform when things are tightened. As KWIL says it gives a certain amount of protection to the paintwork/surface finish of the parts under the nut or bolt head.
 
Crinkle Washers are frequently used in areas where there might be some vibration and also they protect the parts being bolted together. They are a halfway house between plain and spring washers. They are normally thinner than plain washers but have a wavy profile that is compressed and the screw is tightened.
 
Spring Washers, these are used when there is likely to be a fair amount of vibration and are used to stop the nut/bolt unscrewing under these conditions. They actually dig into the surface of the material and the nut/screw and effectively form a sort of ratchet at the spring ends. As the name implies they are spring shape and often hardened to some degree.
 
Star Washers, these tend to be used where there are high levels of vibration and by their design are very aggressive in so much as they are frequently hardened and the many points dig into the parts being joined to form a multi-point ratchet. The surface of the material that has been screwed together under a star washer is normally pretty well chewed up or marked.
 
I know this is very basic but I hope it goes a little way to answering your question. I know that there are more qualified/experienced members of these forums that will be able to give you a better answer with a more detailed description as to where, when and why.
 
Cheers
 
 
Martin

Edited By Martin W on 08/12/2009 18:35:47

mgj08/12/2009 18:57:40
1017 forum posts
14 photos
I think the Victorians used to be quite sparing on washers, in which case I'd use Loctite - but keep off certain paints.
 
On a lot of steam models you can bolt it up and paint over 
Gordon W09/12/2009 10:14:54
2011 forum posts
Heres where I get shot down . On normal assy. washers are not needed, the bolt head and nut have a circuler face, the same dia. as a standard washer. Lotus, and aircraft etc do not use washers, extra weight, corrosion etc.. Spring washers do not dig in ,to any useful extent, did a test on them many years ago, nor do they "keep the nut tight". A properly torqued bolt is stretched more than the spring in the washer, if you see what I mean. Star washers I always assumed, maybe wrongly, were for electrical contact as well as a little extra friction. The important washers are thick, to spread the clamping loads eg. cyl. heads, structural steelwork.
Ian S C10/12/2009 11:38:50
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7468 forum posts
230 photos
I quote my Pitman Aircraft Mechanic's Pocket Manual(when I was in the industry I worked mainly on US aircraft)Washers-Plain(AN960)use of washers under nut or bolt.One washer shall always be specified on the drawing with each bolt or stud to prevent damage to the part or finish thereon.A steel washer shall be provided where the fitting is steel,and a heat treated aluminum alloy washer with aluminum alloy fitting.Aluminum and brass washers for electrical systems.The washer shall be assembled by the shop Under either the head of the bolt or nut,whichever is turned in tightening.Generally not more than one additional washer(total of two)may be used by the shop as pack washers,if neccessary,to adjust for cotter hole location or eliminate threads in bearing.AN is the American army navy standard which I beleave has been replaced by a new standard,nasa I think.Ian S C
Gordon W10/12/2009 15:19:21
2011 forum posts
Very interesting Iansc, maybe that would be OK for mounting bits to the frame, esp. in US (dig, dig). 2 washers! When I started A/C D.O many years ago (D/Hav.) I was laughed at for suggesting using washers, thats how I remember.Washers not used for structeral joints. But as always open to correction.
Tony Martyr12/12/2009 20:28:29
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226 forum posts
45 photos
Washers are also used to minimise electrolytic corrosion when the clamped materials and bolts are well apart in the electrolytic series. We always had to use cadmium plated washes one the casing joints of royal Navy gearboxes. In fact aluminium will scuff badly under the steel nut if washers are not used.
mgj13/12/2009 00:50:25
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Gordon - I agree. On the racer I always used 1/2 nuts to save weight! And we talk of 2 washers.! Quality made ali cast components have the litte steel inserts to stop scuffing.and one uses a dab of loctite to stop all unravelling. - and copaslip to prevent corrosion. Especially on Ti components - not that one would ever use Ti nuts and bolts a second time.
 
If I had to use a washer on ali, I'd use for choice one of those hardened very thin steel ones.
 
Nowadays though, in a lot of cases, holes are punched a bit oversize to allow for easy assembly and inaccuracies in production, so a washer one has to use. 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 13/12/2009 01:00:18

GoCreate13/12/2009 03:34:36
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387 forum posts
119 photos
 

Hi everyone

I am a consultant in the bolting industry, it's my job to design tools, calculate bolting requirements and provide procedures. Provided correct lubrication is applied washers are not used unless there is good reason to protect the surface of the component. On critical applications with high bolt loads thick hardened washers may be used to assist in load distribution and tightening method. Lubricants such as copperslip or coppaslip are termed anti-seize compounds, they lubricate for tightening then give corrosion prevention to assist in loosening. You have to be very careful which compounds you use depending upon bolt materials and operating condition.  Spring washers etc provide no benefit on structural applications, correctly designed and tightened joints don't need any additional feature, or locknuts or anything, There are a couple of exceptions that employ tab washers or heavy duty Belleville washers. On critical joints use anti seize compounds, normal grease and oils increase the torque required and reduce control over bolt load. Don't use molybdenum-based compounds unless you know what you are doing, you could put a critical joint into a dangerous condition.

 

Nigel

Edited By tractionengine42 on 13/12/2009 03:38:17

Ian S C13/12/2009 10:51:45
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7468 forum posts
230 photos
Just been rereading my Continental maintenance and overhaul manuals,all fittings attached by nut and bolt/stud- washer,lock washer,nut,except the conrod bolts-nothing,or the crankcase through bolts just a plain washer,but with a Palnut on top of the nut,a Palnut is a thin sheet metal nut that is tightened only 1/6 to 1/4 of a turn this is an effective lock.The washer and lock washer system is also used on the airframe of Piper,Cessna,and other US light aircraft.This may not be the case with heavy aircraft,but I don't have any experience of any heavies other than DC-3/P&W R1830,they use the same system.the aircraft in the Pitman book are American WW2 piston engine.
Mike13/12/2009 11:21:36
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713 forum posts
6 photos
A few months ago, when I needed some info on nut and bolt technology, I found a very useful website. Sod's Law being what it is, I forgot to bookmark it, and now can't find it!However, I remember they recommended flanged nuts and bolts rather than washers as they generate superior  friction against the parts being held together, and are therefore far less likely to vibrate loose.
Also, no mention above of Nyloc nuts, in which I have great (maybe misplaced!) faith. Any thoughts from the experts?
Another also...Has anybody ever struggled to get a stuck sump plug out of a Mini? Popular rumour back in the 70s was that the thread form was such that it actually tightened under varying temperatures and vibration. Can this be true?
Circlip13/12/2009 11:57:27
1723 forum posts
Bellevilles are realy springs as opposed to "Gripping" spring washers and in cold applications Nylocs aren't very grippy. Haven't seen them approved for Aircraft applications. Remember seeing somewhere that to "Reactivate" Nylocs they should be immersed in boiling water to allow the thread deformation to un-deform.
 
   Regards  Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 13/12/2009 11:58:09

Edited By Circlip on 13/12/2009 11:59:49

mgj13/12/2009 15:40:08
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Ian don't aircraft applications always lockwire?
 
Quite willing to be proved wrong but on helicopters belonging to Crab Air and Teeny Weeny Airways, I don't remember seeing any nuts and bolts that weren't lockwired.
 
Nylocks are a once only use? I think.
Mike13/12/2009 16:06:55
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713 forum posts
6 photos
Hi Meyrick
I was always taught to treat Nylocks as one-use nuts, and I had certainly never heard of restoring them by boiling. I can also recall a thing I think was called an Evans nut. It had a horizontal cut in the top which caused the top of the thread to distort slightly. This slight distortion provided a very tight grip on the thread of the bolt or stud. All this goes back to the pre-Loctite days.
Circlip13/12/2009 17:36:06
1723 forum posts
Simmonds nuts and Aerotites and yes Meyrick, some of the nutted applications that didn't have a self locking feature were torqued and wired. The normal aero types with the deformable section resulted in both the nut and bolt being bu**ered after one application, expensive but safer than having your bits drop orft.
 
   Yes, Nylocs have a one use application, straight into the bl**dy scrap bin BEFORE use.
 
  Regards  Ian.
chris stephens13/12/2009 20:07:20
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Circlip,
Simmonds nuts were the original Nylock, but with red fibre instead of nylon. I remember reading about them in an old ME from the forties or early fifties, where they talked about this wonderful new invention!

No one has talked about the special flanged nuts with ratchet type serrations on the flange, to prevent unwanted loosening. These I suppose only work on soft surfaces.

Is there no end to man's ingenuity?

chriStephens
mgj13/12/2009 20:42:08
1017 forum posts
14 photos
You can get bolts with a dab of some coloured stuff on them already. Colour varies- I've seen blue and red, but maybe there are others.
 
This is a predabbed "dry" Loctite .
 
Convenient, if expensive. 
Ian S C13/12/2009 23:18:16
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7468 forum posts
230 photos
Nylok nuts are approved foraircraft use,and widely used,not suitable for temps above 120deg c,may be reused if they cannot be screwed on by hand.for temps above 120 deg c metal lock nuts are used there are 2 types,one has 6 little slots 1 1/2-2 threads down from top and distorted in ward,the other the top is squashed slightly oval.No not all are lock wired.Were I woprk these days nylock nuts are rejuvinated by giving the nylon end of the nut a whack with a hammer before refitting!Ian S C

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