Need milling tools/cutters

I have just bought an Emco FB2 mill but now need some end mills.

I will be working with steel and aluminium. Mainly car projects

I will working in metric

So I assume I will need a set of end mills, any advise as to what sizes to start with?

What system should I buy for holding the end mills? The Mill shaft has a MT2 taper. Again I would assume collets but there are so many.

Once you have been advised on the sizes of your cutters, cncpoorboy in Manchester is one place to consider. Good quality professional cutters at good prices. Presumably obtained through trade sales and auctions.

You need to think about the specific jobs you might be doing. Then think about what size cutters to order. You may choose to buy an assortment. If you do it is likely several of the tools may never be used. Several years ago I bought a set of Chinese end mills, being in the US they were inch sizes, from 3/16" to 3/4" by 1/16 increments. It included both 2 flute and 4 flute cutters in each size. If you buy something like that in metric you will probably cover most of your needs. Generally I use the 2 flute in aluminum and 4 flute in steel. If you are doing mostly aluminum you may want 2 or 3 flute cutters with polished flutes.Hope that helps.

You may want to consider an ER 32 collet chuck. It makes tool changes quite convenient, not having to mess with the drawbar.

John

You could try these, I've got some and they seem pretty decent.

**LINK**

In a small mill like that, cutting steel, realistically, it will be best to use cutters 8mm and smaller. I would look at a collet system like an ER16 up to 10.3mm collet, with the smaller compact castle nut series. The shorter the holder the more ridgid it will be and also allow  slightly more room between the table and cutter.  Small cutters ie 6 to 8 mm will chatter less and can run at higher rpm and in turn you can remove more material quicker.

Cutters 8 mm and smaller are also significantly cheaper than the 10mm and up cutters. I would recommend that what ever collet system you decide to buy, get the highest precision collets that they make, like in the Regofix series, I would buy their high precision ones RegoFix is the UP range. They run more concentric that the regular ones, you get longer cutter life, (very measurable) and improved surface finish for not much more initial out lay. In the Regofix series of collets, they go to larger diameters than the generic suppliers of t he ER collet series. For MT2, you can also get MT2 collets in the standard cutter sizes. The industry standard is 3mm shank for very small, also 4mm shank for the very small, then, 5mm,6mm,8mm, Some 7mm cutters are on a 7 shank, but most are on an 8mm shank. Some 5mm cutters are also on a 6mm shank. This is all for carbide cutters.

Out here in NZ, you can get carbide cutters at such reasonable prices,and very good quality for less than averge cost of HSS cutters. I have not brought any HSS milling cutters in the last 6 years at all. My last HSS cutter was a woodruff T slot cutter and a small dovetail cutter. Lots of choices.

There is advantaged to the ER system, and I would recommend buying the smallest ER system that you need rather than the bigger one that you will most likely not use. The smaller systems have shorter collets, which is really good for the smaller endmills.

Neil

Edited By Neil Lickfold on 13/01/2017 20:11:56

ER32 is a pretty good all rounder for generic milling work. You can spend hundreds on industrial milling websites so i'd stick to whats reasonably priced on the net.

I use lots of different suppliers myself and i do try to see what I can get cheaper on the net.

However, for what it's worth if you want a good mark of quality at medium expense you couldn't do far wrong with ARC's carbide milling cutters, individually priced but decent.

Like others have said, I tend to avoid sets but go for "bundled deals" of individual cutters sometimes.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 13/01/2017 20:25:10

I use 2MT collets to hold milling cutters in my FB2 clone to minimise the tool projection. Most milling cutters have "standard" shank diameters - 3,6,8,10,12 will cover most eventualities. Mine came from ArcEuroTool **LINK** at a Harrogate show (see earlier post about Arc having a 10% discount offer on at the moment) & have worked well.

Using an ER collet chuck will extend the cutter a long way from the spindle nose (increased possibility of chatter + wear on bearings + eats into available headroom) & ER collets offer a shorter gripping length compared to a Morse taper collet. The FB2 (& clones) have a rather strange spindle bearing arrangement that uses a "sized" needle roller bearing running directly on the hardened spindle & quill directly - there is no adjustment for wear, so it seems preferable to me to reduce the loading on this bearing as much as possible to maximise spindle life.

IIRC Graham Meek has described a reworking of his FB2 spindle to take taper roller bearings, but I don't know where Graham has details of this now since he had all his content on the ME forums removed.

Nigel B

But is that possible? I didn't think you were allowed to delete.

Michael W

.

Special circumstances ... best not open old wounds.

MichaelG.

But is that possible?

In Graham's case, unfortunately so - see this earlier topic :

**LINK**

Nigel B

There was an ER32 holder on my mill when I bought it used, but no collets, so initialy purchased the sizes of collet to fit standard end mill sizes. I have since got an ER32 collet chuck for my lathe built up a full set of collets from 2mm up to 20mm, they are a God send for machining bar material.

The first end mills were cheap Chinese ones from Ebay, they didn't last very well but they got me started. A pack of ten 4mm for a few quid, you can't go wrong. Now I usually buy more expensive coated end mills, they have a much longer life.

I have an Emco mill and would definitely recommend using MT2 collets for most of your milling cutter needs. Adding the extra overhang of a Morse to ER adapter will restrict the machines cutting ability for no real advantage.

If your flush and you feel like spending by all means have an ER adapter and collets as well as there may be jobs where the ability of ER collets to grip different diameters (over a short range) may be useful.

I'm not sure about the FB2 mill but the earlier version has a non ideal drawbar arrangement in that the spindle through hole is not big enough to take the 3/8" or 10mm drawbar/collet threads. The spindle only clears an 8mm drawbar and Emco supplied a male/female converter that screws into the collet and allows the machine to use an 8mm bar. Sometimes this adapter gets stuck up the spindle and can be a pain. Its a simple matter to open up the spindle bore to take a standard size drawbar which solves the problem forever.

Ian P

Ah, a sort of schism took place, I wont flare it up.

Back to the collet talk, the only downside with drawbar MT collets is that this is only an MT2 machine, I don't say that to be denigrating but it means it's limited by the maximum opening of the spindle, so if you want to use your 20mm cutter for roughing...it wont fit. To date I've used the unbranded ER collets and never had any problems pertaining to run-out. Just remember to "pop" them in, otherwise you will get a lot of run-out and possibly some duffed collets.

My mill has a lot of head height and I already had a replete collection of ER40 collets for the lathe, so took a relatively easy step towards buying an MT2 ER40 chuck for my mill. Having said that, I prefer to use the ER20 chuck for small work and it does give you back virtually all your head room.

However, on the positive side of things, if you've got a fairly accurate lathe you can make your own MT collets.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 13/01/2017 22:11:42

Michael W, I am not sure it would be a good idea to use a 20mm cutter to rough out any material on a FB2 even though they are pretty useful machines. I think an ER25 collet chuck would be adequate for the FB2 and provide collet sizes up to 16mm if you really want to push to the limits. I use a mixture of ER25 and ER16 chucks on an F1, the smaller nose size of the ER16 is useful with std reach cutters in tight places.

Emgee

Dave, I have had my FB2 for some 30 years and use it several time a week, I would use ER25 collets as supplied originally with the machines. Below is a link to one that looks like the original, it may b e a clone ? It may be good or not so good you will have to decide. I think the originals are still available from the UK Emco distributor.

There are plenty of alternatives from UK suppliers but one thing to be careful of is don't use too long a wrench when tightening cutters, it is possible to strip the tufnel gear thats in the gearbox. I have never had a problem but there is a design for a spindle lock to avoid this by Graham Meek. There are also spanner flats on the spindle but the spanner provided is next to useless so make your own.

I wonder if you have the origin draw bar and spindle cap for automatic ejection of the taper ? Do not be tempted to use a hammer to release the taper.

The machine will serve you well and I'm sure exceed your expectations -- but then I may be a little biased !

Cheers John

**LINK**

The reason for suggesting ER16 is it will be the shortest collet system with a MT2 mandrel. Realistically you are not going to use bigger than 10mm cutters anyway.

I agree also that MT2 collets are best to meet your needs. They are relatively cheap, available in all the sizes needed for cutters up to 13 mm shank, minimise overhang so increase rigidity, and give the maximum available clearance under the spindle for taller workpieces/vices etc. If you had the option IMHO the best choice is R8, but your spindle is MT2 so you don't!

I use ER16 collets on my little CNC mill as that's what it came with, but the chuck eats up at least 60mm under the spindle and there isn't much daylight to start with. With that and the fact that I'm limted to 10mm cutters I'm trying to work out the best way of holding larger cutters with minimum projection.

The downside of MT2 is the potential drawbar size, highlighted above; and that they can get stuck in the taper. For the first, if your spindle is limited to 8mm dia. drawbar, you could fit each collet with a home-made adapter M8 to 3/8 whit or M10 (whichever the collet has), loctited in position. For the second, minimise the chance of sticking by keeping taper socket and collet very clean, lightly oil before inserting, don't over-tighten, and maybe fitting a self-release on the top of the drawbar.

Though 13mm cutter shank is a slight limitation, if you really want to use a larger size use an MT2 shank inserted-bit cutter (or make one).

Neil, where in NZ do you get the cheap carbide end mills. Currently use screwed shank HSS from Trade Tools in Chch.

Ian S C

if you want to use your 20mm cutter

A bit brutal in a small machine with all of 1/4 Hp (if single phase - 1/3 Hp 3 phase) to drive it. That said, Emco did list a shell end mill arbor and a 40 dia. HSS shell end mill as accessories - but this sits a lot closer to the spindle nose than a collet chuck. The collet chuck Emco offered was ESX25, with max. collet capacity of 14mm.

I made an arbor to carry a 50 dia. 3 insert face mill. My S7 came with the taper turning attachment & it is set to turn 2MT tapers. It was straight forward to make the arbor so that the flange was about 0.002" clear of the spindle nose when inserted by hand - when nipped with the drawbar, the flange contacts the spindle nose for increased stiffness. I can't say I am too happy using it, though, and tend to use a fly cutter & light cuts to face larger areas.

As I was in the garage today, I had the drawbar out of my FB2 clone. I made this, as the machine came without - it is approx. 11.5mm diameter, with a 3/8 BSW thread to suit the 2MT collets. It is a loose fit in the spindle, which I didn't measure but would expect to be around 12mm through. At a guess the 8mm drawbar would have applied to the earlier, 4 speed "Mentor" version.

There are also spanner flats on the spindle but the spanner provided is next to useless so make your own.

Yes, the OE pressed steel item is very short - my machine is 32mm AF, a standard metric spanner size. I would not contemplate not using a spanner on the spindle nose when tightening or loosening a tool. I doubt very much that the fibre gear is still available - the owner of my first machine of this type bought replacements from Ajax Machine Tools when they were in Stockport & 20 years ago they were £75 a pop. He reckoned these were cheaper than Emco.

I have an original Emco FB2 brochure & a photocopied FB2 clone manual - I'ii try & get these scanned & pop them in an album as .jpegs when I have a spare half hour.

Nigel B