Far Eastern Tooling

Im setting up a workshop again from literally scratch after being away from the tools for about 15yrs. In the past I had nice gear, a lot of English made stuff, Im sure you all know the quality Im talking about. However, that is all gone now and with a workshop to set up and a few pound in the bank Im really struggling to decide how best to spend it.

Ive recently acquired a Warco GH1330 and Im pleasantly surprised by the quality of work its producing albeit some of the controls etc aren't as nice as the M300 I used to have.

Now Im looking at tooling and although there is plenty out there at very reasonable prices from the likes of Warco, RDG, Chronos etc Im struggling to take the plunge and order anything because I keep thinking it will be rubbish. In truth Im not in a position to kit out my new workshop with the gear I would like unless I wait forever and scour eBay for months maybe years.

Im thinking of things like collets, collet chucks, drill chucks, lathe and mill tooling, mill vices etc - are they good enough to turn out some decent work to sensible tolerances?

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There are members here that produce some truly stunning work with the aide of tooling purchased from the above.

However when I first started I purchased quite a lot from ONE of those vendors listed above. - Everything I purchased from them has either had to be replaced or is on the list to do so.

I have purchased from the other two  without any issues.

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 07/03/2016 18:10:45

Hi Alan,

I have tooling from all the suppliers you mention, All of it has ended up fine, although I have had to return a few items for replacement - which has been done quickly and without quibble. I also have tooling from Arc Eurotrade (UK) and CTC tools (Hong Kong). I have some 'high end' kit purchased second (or more) hand from a certain auction site; some good, some not so good.

If you look back through these forums (fora?) you will find many discussions on such tooling, with opinions varying from 'you get what you pay for' through 'not fit for purpose' to 'it's the only way I could get started', with plenty of brickbats about quality control.

If you accept that this kit is made to a price, and that YOU are the quality controller, all will be well. If you expect Rolls Royce accuracy for Trabant prices, you will be disappointed!

It also depends on what you call 'sensible' tolerances. One man's 'perfectly OK' is another man's scrap bin entry.

If you are happy with your lathe, which was made in the same type of factories as the tooling under discussion, then you should be happy with the tooling.

Arc don't exhibit at shows any more, but Chronos, Warco, Chester and RDG do, so you could see what is on offer in the flesh. Depending on where you are you could also visit the premises of tool sellers to get a feel for what is on offer.

I guess if you are building a lunar lander you may need to save up for top end kit - if you are just enjoying yourself in the workshop, my feeling is that the kit from the sellers mentioned above is fine.

Just my £.02 worth. Opinions may vary, etc etc.

John

Tbh, i would love to go and spend all my money at a premium tool dealer like Floyd automaton, Cutwel or even cromwell tooling, pratt bernard chucks, genuine jacobs drill chucks.

But then i woke up and realized this is the real world. I guess i'm just going to have to keep the chinese on their piece work for the sake of my indulgences.

The china-bashing thing has been done to death so i'm afraid i wont start that. A tool is only ever as good as the person wielding it, i've only got me, so i guess i'll have to do it regardless of what tolerances my cack hands may muster.

Long live China!

Michael W

Another £.01. Toolposts. I have had a number of Dixon style (Chinese made) quick change toolposts but I found the toolholders varied slightly and some needed some 'adjustment' on the grinder. I have since switched to the 'Aloris' (again, Chinese made) style. All the toolholders I have bought, regardless of supplier, fit exactly the same. The downside is a slight reduction in the tool shank thickness that can be used.

John

Hi Alan

FWIW...The vast majority of my gear is 'Made in China' I have a Warco WM250V-F, a WM16 Mill, don't have the space for anything larger, ER25 collet set + MT2,MT4 arbours, assortment of milling cutters... CTC ( Hong Kong ) 4" Mill Vice, rotab' with 3" & 4" chucks, various drill chucks, Rot' centres, drill sets, 1-2-3 blocks etc. etc. ... from ArcEuro, Chronos, RDG, Tracy tools et al... the vast majority of stuff we get in the UK / Europe is from /made in China there's no getting away from it. Yes there are some very good 'British' items on the auction site or in the 'For sale' section of this forum, but unless you have the room to fit it in, time to wait for it appearing, or enough cash to pay 'silly money' for the likes of a 'tidy' Myford then the Chinese equipment is what you're usually going to end up with.

Having said all that I cannot complain with my stuff, it has/ does serve me well & yes I've had a few 'not so good quality' items but to quote the old adages... 'you gets what you pay for' ... or 'don't expect a RR for a mini price'. There are members who have posted tales of woe about Chinese stuff & problems encountered, I myself had problems with my WM250 initially, but a couple of e mails, with pics, a couple of 'pleasant' tel. calls resolved the problem quite quickly, that's my experience, others may be not. If you recall many years ago when Britain's auto trade was in full swing there were still the 'Monday morning - Friday tea time' cars coming off the lines so ...

Re. the above mentioned Co's the usual disclaimer applies, I reckon you've got a decent bit if kit with your GH1330, hopefully we'll get to see some pics of your kit, what you make with it, enjoy.

George.

So, the answer from 'the panel' is......jump in, buy some gear and make some swarf!

If some one wants to look at a selection of levels of quality mscdirect might be worth a nose around. They often have periods when they offer hefty discounts. As a for instance I feel it's about time i really sorted out my milling vice. I have a good one but...... sort of thing. I just ordered an sg iron one of them also a set of parallels. In real terms with the price levels they were offering on these particular items at the moment I doubt if I could do better. They also carry a lot of the real industrial stuff but as would be expected the prices are high.

I notice a Bridgeport kit being offered for instance - r8 collets, 6" vice and hold down kit for £99 at the moment. Vat has to be added. The normal price for the bits and pieces is in the catalogue.

John

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My take on things is to buy second hand stuff made in the UK, Europe or US if possible. If the cost is still prohibitive then start to look at the China stuff.

If you're clever about things you can buy the less critical stuff made in China and spend more on the things that need to be good quality. For example I absolutly won't buy Chinese made cutting tools! On the other hand something simple like a set of parallels go for it.

Edited By Hollowpoint on 07/03/2016 20:16:29

Why not, the alternative might well be nothing otherwise, do it do it do it!

Michael W

Michael, the story of the old bull and the young bull springs to mind

Thanks for the feedback so far guys, much appreciated.

On my list imminently are;

R8 ER32 chuck/collets

R8 Keyless drill chuck

R8 flycutter

6" machine vice

If anyone has such that they have been happy with then any links to retailers would be appreciated.

Chronos haven't been to a show for about 5 years - yes I couldn't believe it was so long when they told me.

Anyway a few years ago when several suppliers still went to shows I wanted a particular minor tool, Chinese made, and went round four or five suppliers at the MEX all with one but at different prices initially looking for the cheapest. However in doing so I realised they were not al the same with different mark-ups. One was significantly better made (and the most expensive) so don't assume they are all from the same cheap as chips factory and be prepared to shop around for quality.

I think that's good advice.

There are lots of good quality stuff available on eBay if you take the time to have a good look. I've been disappointed with some of the Far East stuff and even threw away a knurling tool bought from one of the vendors mentioned because it was so bad. I still have a Far East keyless chuck that just won't grip as well as my Albrecht but I don't have the heart to bin it. I think if you get good quality for your most used tooling and cheaper stuff for the less often used then you won't be too disappointed.

Maybe this will interest you. They are nothing to do with me but some one suggested them for other bits and pieces

If seems to be the same vice as I have ordered in a smaller size - flame hardened and ground slide way, downward force. As to the rest squareness etc I wont know until it comes tomorrow. Cheap parallels - well they do specify the accuracy which at a few tenths I am not all that happy about but will do for many things and I have better if needed.

I'm praying that the rotary base can be removed for more headroom. That is possible on some so it can be fitted as needed.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 07/03/2016 21:21:21

I would agree with John, go for one of the Kurt clone vices as above. I have one I'm happy with and yes the base can be removed. I got the 4 inch version from Axminster tools.

Theres good, bad and mediocre stuff made in asia, have to be really careful with a bit of trial and error.

In general base it upon the amount of use you will get out of it and price. I wouldn't have 1/4 of what I have if bought new quality tooling though have a fair bit, last count in excess of £30k to replace over 25 years.
Happy medium is the east European stuff ie chucks but having been there draw the line at own shop brand and no brand cutting tools, they don't last false economy.

MSC very expensive when on offer often found substantially cheaper then find have to add the vat. I only buy the FC3 Hertel cutters or sell off items few and far between. Perhaps if they didn't send me three brochures a month they could drop the prices.

In short no substitute for a good well known quality brand along lines of Iscar, Ceratizit, Seco but they are dear comparatively.

Drill chucks usually ok from china, theyre cheap and highly replaceable, MT3 collets ok from Arc, Chester a big no everyone slips but look the same! Lathe tooling much the same from the well known UK shops, you take a gamble.

I've found carbide tooling from APT good - their own brand but they also have others.

The vice isn't the same as the one Arc do so not using the base may not be possible. The downward force still needs a mallet if machine accuracy is needed - and the vice is true to the table but it helps. There was a UK company that made various sizes of toolmakers vices that achieved the same thing. I'd say the biggest gain in this case is a wider truly usable opening.

John

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There is a crack in the rotary base so it's going back however.

The vice looks pretty good and is very similar to the one Arc sell so the vice can be used off the swivel base. They claim basic parallel aspects to better than 20um and double that with a test block mounted in it. The doubling may be down to the squareness limit on the jaws but checking with my square they are true. They claim better than 50um at 100mm above the vice slides.

Can't stick it on a surface plate at the moment and check but all aspects look rather well made which is a good sign. The finish at the bottom of the rotary base is a touch naff but not that bad. It would have nice to see that ground. The screw is par for the course these days but at least the handle doesn't need hitting with a mallet which is why I'd guess they tend to use finer pitch screws these days. Looks like it runs in cast iron, not that unusual. It's also black

It'll look a bit big on a Dore Westbury. Looking at the crack the whole thing has been dropped at some point landing on the side of the rotary base. The polystyrene packing was messed up a bit.

John

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If buying from any well-known web site, you can ask a question such as 'What is your standard for concentricity with these collets?' and then there should be no argy if they don't comply. Or even - 'I need this tool for clockmaking and the standards are tight. Can you confirm the good quality for this purpose?

Remember the Sale of Goods Act covers UK purchases made from any trader, and both the site and the trader are liable. As is your card supplier for stuff over £100.

How you chaps elsewhere in the world manage, well, perhaps you could tell us?

Regards, Tim

PS why is it that we can't say 'I bought from Joe Soap and it was rubbish' etc?

Last year my good lady was visiting the UK to see the daughter and grandson, so I having to stay home at the ranch and keep the doggies company, looked at the various suppliers websites and made a few purchases.

Postage from the UK to South Africa normally costs more than goods cost. And in many cases just disappears in transit never to be seen again. So good lady did her usual trick and took two suitcase, one inside the other and brought back two full ones! Best part was the free carriage and the excellent speed of delivery. Ordered one item in the morning and it was at the daughters house by mid afternoon. We don't get that sort of service here.

One of the purchases was a QCTP for the Myford Super 7. I had been promising myself one for a while and Chronos had a suitable set on special, so I jumped in. The previous time they were out of stock so I had to bail out of the purchase. When good lady arrived home all the items were unpacked and inspected. The TC tipped lathe tools were considered a bit iffy but usable with some regrinding, not Chronos supplied but AN Other supplier, who I will give a miss in future. But to be fair for what I paid I wasn't expecting Brown and Sharp quality!

I finally came to fit the new tool post and had to make a slight modification to the Myford top slide, as I knew I would having firstly studied the ones on offer, but it went smoothly and it was all back together and working in a couple of hours. What a pleasure not having to faff about with shims and old bits of feeler gauges to set the tool height.

Then I noticed there was a small hole which was designed to take a dowel pin for indexing the top part. I thought that would be a good addition so planned to drill a row of holes in the top slide to set definite angles, but it was not to be!

Measured up the hole, which is narrower at the bottom than the top, and decided I needed to ream this hole to something I could use. It was a tad under 1/4" and bigger than 6mm, sort of in between oddball choice I thought, I schemed out a spring loaded pin effort that I could just pull up to retract the dowel pin when I slackened the centre bolt so I could rotate it simply. So I applied the 1/4" hand reamer expecting it to easily walk through the block. Not a chance. The metal is really tough and hardened, the reamer wouldn't even touch it, it was so hard, which surprised me until I realised who the manufacturer was. The box said Soba, but it is actually Shobha, which is a well respected company jn India who make a whole variety of machine tools and accessories. One of the largest ball bearing manufacturers in the world is based in India and Tata Steels is by far the largest steel manufacturer in the world.

So when you assume the stuff is made in China (everything is made in China these days - is a common cry) well you may be wrong. It is more likely to be made in India.

My precision 3-jaw chuck is made in Chezk republic and it is superb, holding its tolerance over many years of abuse and it wasn't expensive when I bought it here about ten years ago,

Edited By John Fielding on 08/03/2016 15:37:15