Self adulation

Terry...that photo...not from outside Foxconn [Iphone] factory by any chance?

Trying to understand a badly spelt and punctuated post is sometimes so tiring that I give up. I am usually visiting the forum late at night and often I don't want the struggle.

It is also irritating; if someone is hoping for help and advice then surely they should take the trouble to present their question in an everyday readable and understandable way. This is particularly important if small details like decimal points are involved.

As someone has said, ask a friend to skim through it.

The odd mistake or badly formed sentence are unimportant, I think.

It seems strange that this thread got going by people, me included being upset about Bob not exactly encouraging youngsters into our hobby.

Reading the last few pages of this thread I wonder how many lurkers of which many may be beginners and youngsters will now be put off asking for help or posting details of what they have been up to for fear of being jumped on?

The comparison between bad English and bad drawings does not wash with me, with a few mistakes in a text we can still get the gist of what is being said but a wrong dimension on a drawing will mean the part is wrong.

I'll add this note taken from another forum that I post on as being a fellow sufferer I feel what he says would be worth members here bearing in mind.

"As we grow, we have or will have members that are not too good at spelling etc.

This can be for a variety of reasons, education, medical or even dyslexia, which I slightly suffer from, and rely heavily on my spell checker.

This is no ones fault, if everyone was the same, what state would the world be in.

Members who have these afflictions usually have to work at least twice as hard as everyone else to make up a post, and even then, it can sometimes be almost unreadable. But at least they try, which a few 'normal' people won't even do.

So please, before we dive down peoples throats over these issues, spare a thought about the person who has composed it. Either he/she couldn't or can't make it any clearer or better, or has made a genuine mistake."

J

I must admit as a middle aged newbie (is 48 middle aged these days?) that the level of scrutiny on this forum over what seems to me to be incidental mistakes or trivial matters is quite unbelievable

I can understand that a wrong number or dimension can have serious consequences, but bad grammar or spelling? Unless it is describing a procedure and the writing conveys incorrect instructions what is the problem?

I really enjoy being a member on this forum. You lot are enlightening, entertaining and very knowledgeable. Sometimes you are curmudgeonly, bitter, argumentative and nearing downright abusive but I'll take that for all the pearls of wisdom you leave around the place

Keep up the good work

John (real name, don't understand why you don't like pseudonyms!)

PS. you've almost made me want to go and get a copy of ME to read what was written but being a tight fisted Yorkshireman I'll just find one to borrow

Hi. Jason.

You've written, probably better than I ever could , a post that I've been thinking about contributing to this very sad and sorry mess, which brings little credit to the hobby we all supposedly enjoy and to the forum to which we contribute. I'm a member of several other forums, which deal with different aspects of sea angling. Not once can I remember anything other than friendly advice and chat being posted. Some model engineers must view their hobby as a higher calling than the most popular past time in the country and therefore more entitled to adopt a superior attitude to those who, for what ever reason cannot expresses themselves eloquently, or spell every word in the English language correctly, making the posting and the views expressed irrelevant and the writer a lesser human being. I haven't read the article that started this moral crusade, as my subscription to ME lapsed several months ago and I find MEW more relevant to my own interests. Nobody has really addressed the feelings of this lad, which as I understand it, isn't responsible for writting the piece in the first place, but a number of his elders and betters feel its their duty to judge and pass comment on him and his parents life style. The politics of envy are not very pretty. I await the inevitable flack this post will generate amongst my better educated fellow engineers. This post was compiled with the aid of the SCAYT spell checker

Edited By mick on 20/10/2012 09:41:09

Edited By mick on 20/10/2012 09:41:42

Hi John,

Bad grammar and/or spelling can lead to misunderstanding, Remember the old joke about the Panda who 'eats shoots and leaves'. With a misplaced comma or two it takes on a new meaning entirely - 'eats, shoots, and leaves' . Of course we know about the guy who ordered beans and toast. When he was served beans on toast, he complained, to be told that was what he ordered. "no", he replied, "I like my toast crisp, that's why I ordered beans and toast."

Seriously, this problem can cause a lot of difficulty and misunderstanding. In my researches in education it was obvious that students often had difficulty understanding their lessons because effectively they used words differently to their teacher. Teachers use language precisely to convey exact meaning but all too often children do use language colloquially and imprecisely. Nothing wrong with that in the right time and place but there are times when precision in the use of language is paramount otherwise all kind of confusion and misunderstanding can arise.

A rather trite but illustrative example was when a craft teacher explained that in order to be able to work a material well (he was planing a piece of timber) they should develop a sympathy with the material. He intended to mean they should understand how different properties affect the outcome, such as interlocking grain in Sapele, mineral deposits in Teak, hard knots in Deal etc. The students were nudging, winking and joking about it and when I interviewed them later it turned out that they thought that by using the word 'sympathy' he meant that they should feel sorry for the timber. A lesson lost over a simple confusion.

Further, poorly punctuated messages can be very difficult to read and spellings are sometimes so bad as to make the words unintelligible. In that case many readers may misunderstand and/or pass over what may be valuable information. There is one poster here who has poor spelling and admits it but his writing is punctuated and makes sense and he has great advice to offer. I have no problem with this or with the occasional misspelling or typo, we are all guilty of that but that does not mean that we should not strive to improve, in our writing as well as modelling.

that is my stance on the subject and have little more to say, except that I think language the single most important development in humanity, it enabled us to develop our reasoning, analytical and creative abilities, allowed us to communicate and work together better and has led us to the world we live in now. I think it needs to be used as well as possible.

Best regards

Terry

Gray

I have no problems with pseudonyms. If people start spouting off, whether under their real name or a pseudonym, it is the quality of their words that define them, not the name they post under. A nasty boorish oaf is still the same, whether he be commoner, lord or cartoon character.

Your post reminded me of my old history teacher who would launch chalk, board rubbers and books at inattentive pupils with pin point accuracy no matter how far towards the back of the class they were

John

Sorry Terry that doesn't wash with me. We are talking about people posting on an engineering forum, often complex solutions to problems that can't be grasped by the first read. So you re-read the reply / text until you understand it as a lot of thought is often involved in a text description with no pictures.

Now if it was an article you only read once like in a newspaper it could be different but the readers on here and in the mag are reading for learning.

I run the free advert site at homeworkshop,org.uk and on that site we have a regular poster who buys and sells who is very dyslectic [ who thought of that word ? even people who aren't dyslectic can't spell it ].

He's that dyslectic it's very hard to understand the posts but I go thru these, edit them and correct them and post them. If I didn't he would be picked on unmercifully by the grammar Nazi's when he doesn't deserve this.

I have absolutely no time for these grammar Nazi's who pick up on everyday mistakes often made by very informed people who may not have the education of others, be in a rush or many other reasons. End of the day the message is there.

Perhaps these people should throw their workshop door open so we can come round and take the piss out of what they are doing ?

Hey look your countersinks are all different depths, that tapped hole isn't square, you have left file marks on that piece.

WHY DON'T YOU TAKE MORE CARE.

John S.

P.S. Ironic isn't it that these posts with the most replies / read figures are always about NOT doing something useful.

[Edited due to bad spelling ] 

Edited By John Stevenson on 20/10/2012 11:02:35

There is on this Forum the facility to "ban" a particular contributor (or more if you wish).

I must admit that in the past I have used this, (no names no pack drill). After some time the gaps in the threads began to annoy me and also I began to have withdrawal symptoms.

So in spite of being a strong supporter of the "Panda" and his leaves and shoots, I have settled to ignoring the ranting and am left with a wry smile when the monologues begin.

Well said.

Regards,

Tony

Gray,

After seeing first hand the standard of your work, mine is closed to you.

John S.

I havn't read all these posts ! What difference is there betwwen a young man with a rich dad and a rich man who goes out and buys a model steam train engine, or a model traction engine, and swans about allday with " his " engine? BTW I thought I could spell, until the type writer proved I couldn't, just blurred it when handwriting, looked OK.. Not a nom de plume just to lazy to think of anything better.

Interesting subject, as a one finger typist I may be slow but still manage to get in the minimum number of mistakes.

Regards

Alan

Ho John,

I am quite used to reading complex engineering papers of a post grad level. If you think those are complex try dissertations on philosophy, then you really would have to read more than once. However this is supposed to be an enjoyable forum to discuss general topics onmodel engineering. I could about all the stuff about production engineeringand the need to earn a living but I don't.

You are more than welcome to come to my workshop any time and criticise and advise as much as you like. I need good advice, as long and yes, criticism, as it is constructive I will listen and take note of your wisdom. Please come down, I'm not far down the motorway. I will provide tea and digestives. At least my mind is not yet closed. As the old saying goes, a mind is like a parachute, much better when it's open.

By the way there is an excellent example of confusion of meaning on the 'Best Invention' thread which illustrates my point exactly. Language is the basis of all communication, it is too important to be misused.

I hate to do this but the word is dylexic.

Best Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 20/10/2012 20:47:54

Blimey, who would have thought that an article about equipping a young lads' workshop would cause so much controversy! In my opinion those who have so obnoxiously criticised the article writers' (assumed) wealth and writing style need to have a good look at their own prejudices and consider whether they are relevant to any discussions in this Model Engineering forum. Model Engineers come from all walks of life and social and economic backgrounds and some will have vastly more financial resources than others to devote to the hobby, fact, deal with it! If you want to judge Model Engineers, judge them by what comes out of their workshops, not what they've put into them.

Similarly with varying levels of spelling and grammar, we are all at different levels for a variety of reasons which shouldn't affect the validity of what we are trying to get across in our postings. If you want a better level of literacy go and be a teacher and save this forum for constructive discussions on Model Engineering!

Anyone else want to borrow my soapbox now I've finished with it!? Regards, Martin.

Hi Gray,

I would never criticise anyone whose English is a second language, having to speak two other languages than My native English I know how difficult it is to express oneself in a strange tongue.  In the same vein I would not criticise someone who is dylexic.  Strange that people who are dylexic are usually good at composition, I do take issue with those who are just lax, as I would criticise myself if I did not try to improve my modelling skills. I see no difference.

I always take time to read and re-read my posts but still make mistakes and have to edit more, than I would like but at least I do, like yourself, take the time to do it.  It's really strange how those folks who are sniping at me for so called criticism (If they think that I am making criticism for the sake of it, it demonstrates my point about misunderstanding exactly)  are often ones who are extremely critical of so called Chinglish and moan how it make understanding the manual or whatever difficult.  Could they translate English into Mandarin which has several thousand characters, I think not but they are willing to accept poor practice in their own language.

As for only saying good things about someone, that is very poor advice and the path to failure.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  If you only say good things then everything appears to be hunky dory and there is no need to strive to progress and overcome shortcomings we all suffer from.  It's the same as not telling someone their flies are open, or a womans skirt is tucked into their panties - that way leads to embarrassment and ridicule.  Praise when praise is due but it takes a good friend to point out the warts.

I only just passed O level English but have spent time ever since trying to improve just as I have tried to improve my other skills such as they are.  I pity those who cannot tell the difference between sniping and constructive criticism.

Best regards

T

Edited By Terryd on 20/10/2012 21:33:07

Edited By Terryd on 20/10/2012 21:41:22

KWIL

I have sent you a PM

N

You must have gone to a posh skool then with O level English.

My 3 O levels were in Glue sniffing, Grevious bodily harm and Ice cube rolling.

John S.

My ambition at school was to get hula hoops on all 10 fingers at the same time

Hi Gray,

Thanks for the explanation, I never try to be unpleasant, short at times but not unpleasant. I misunderstood your previous post as you said to say "something pleasant" not say something "pleasantly". There is a difference and that pehaps is an example of what I was trying to say about good use of language as it lead to my confusion (not difficult ) . To tell someone they are not carrying out a task incorrectly is not in itself a pleasant thing to say but it can be said in a pleasant and encouraging manner and I wholeheartedly agree with that. That is one of the tenets of good teaching practice which as you have found out was not always so in the past.

Like yourself the last day of school was the best day of my secondary school life. I went to a very strict and traditional Grammar school which had it's quatercentenary celebrations (400 years) while I was there. At Tech college I flourished and encouraged to use my abilities to the full. I have much to thank that institution for and I despise my schoolmasters for what they did to my own self confidence in those formative years .

Best regards

Terry