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Michael Gilligan18/11/2011 10:30:38
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23121 forum posts
1360 photos
Now that the air has cleared ... May I return to the engineering?

Bogstandard provides a link to his [very useful] review on the HMEM site. This includes the comment:
"You can see from this shot that the screws, even though fairly close on the small blocks, don't overhang the sides at all, so no real problems on that score. I suppose you could use half height heads if you were picky.

Just one criticism, if it was me making them, I would have gone for one size smaller threads in each set, 5mm & 6mm, they would have been plenty strong enough. But that is just me being picky, maybe they need to be that larger size for some reason."

Now; it is worth noting the enormous difference between ISO [metric series] caphead screws and the "proper" Allen screws that were used in ToolRooms when Starrett first designed their blocks. The head size was much smaller in relation to the shank, and similarly, the clearance hole size was smaller. ... These were the next best thing to dowel-pins!
M6 capheads are crude things by comparison; the specified clearance hole is way too big, and the head size is enlarged to conceal the sloppy fit. They are better suited to IKEA furniture.

An open request to John Stevenson:
Would you please suggest to ARC, that they might offer a version with either UNF or BSF threads, and the appropriate clearance holes?
... This would make a Good Thing even Better.

MichaelG.
Tony Jeffree18/11/2011 10:37:29
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569 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by ady on 16/11/2011 11:22:24:
I'm just stimulating and encouraging some technical conversation bogs
Yeah right.
 
Regards,
Tony
Tony Jeffree18/11/2011 10:42:02
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569 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by Chris Trice on 16/11/2011 22:32:56:
The disclaimer has always been pretty pointless in my view since how would you know the person making the claim wasn't lying? It's meaningless. It's a bit like auctions that offer a certificate of authenticity signed by the seller. And ultimately, it doesn't matter. I'm cool with people letting others know about a cool bit of gear whether they or someone else is selling it. A brief single plug is different from the untargetted spam that gets up everyone's nose.
Well said Chris.
 
Regards,
Tony
S.D.L.18/11/2011 10:42:38
236 forum posts
37 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/11/2011 10:30:38:


An open request to John Stevenson:
Would you please suggest to ARC, that they might offer a version with either UNF or BSF threads, and the appropriate clearance holes?
... This would make a Good Thing even Better.

MichaelG.
 
 
The choice of clearance whole size is down to the designer, it can be as close as you want with the proviso that the location of any holes has to be more accurate,
 
Why would anyone design a revised / new product to us a screw that has been obsolete for 30 years or more (BSF).
 
They look good to me as all of Johns other products for Arc-Euro do, Ordered mine as soon as they were flagged here.
 
Steve Larner
Terryd18/11/2011 11:02:23
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1946 forum posts
179 photos

 
 
Posted by Bogstandard on 18/11/2011 09:01:56:
Terry,
 
John S and myself have known each other for a few years, purely on a machining level, NEVER financially. More towards my other side of things, helping other people not as fortunate as ourselves to get into the workshop......................
 
Hi John,
 
I did't say anything about financial cooperation and if anyone thought that was the implication they are mistaken.If there was an implication of financial links it was unintentional and I would apologise.
 
I merely said that you sometimes collaborated with John S (as friends do), as you have commented both here and on HMEM.
 
Best regards
 
Terry
Stovepipe18/11/2011 11:19:52
196 forum posts
Well, I've ordered mine from ARC, courtesy of Bogs pointing out the item.
Can anyone solve that age-old conundrum - what thread is used to tap "a monkey's nuts" ?
 
Dennis
Gray6218/11/2011 11:39:13
1058 forum posts
16 photos
Thanks to John (Bogs) for bringing this to our attention and to John S for designing these blocks.
Ordered mine yesterday and they arrived in the post this morning.
 
They are very well made and finished, just a shame they don't come with a couple of screws, but that is a very minor criticism.
 
Graeme
Michael Gilligan18/11/2011 11:46:23
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23121 forum posts
1360 photos
Steve [S.D.L.]

"Why would anyone ..."

Quite simply ... for all the reasons that I gave.
O.K. perhaps UNF is a better choice than BSF but the fact remains that Allen screws in both these series were better proportioned [for precision engineering use] than the current metric ones.

In my opinion; a thing only becomes obselete if the proposed replacement is better.

If you can let me know of anywhere that I can obtain metric series, high tensile caphead screws; with small diameter heads and fine tolerances, then I shall happily withdraw my suggestion.

MichaelG.


John Stevenson18/11/2011 12:21:47
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
Michael,
WERE better is probably the correct term.
Have you measured ant modern made UNF allen head screws up lately?
 
Sorry gone down the road of easier/ cheaper to make with baggy tolerances.
 
Anyway can you image the supply problems if there are three different threads on the market ? The smaller set wouldn't be able to handle 1/4" UNF so you would be down to the numbered unified series 6-32 and ilk.
 
That would be a logistical minefield in any other country than the USA.
 
Never going to happen from this direction.
 
In answer to your last query if you want small heads [ why ? they don't touch or overlap ? ] and tight tolerances then go to an Aerospace supply company, please let us know how much they are per 100 ?
 
John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 18/11/2011 12:23:30

Tony Jeffree18/11/2011 12:23:58
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569 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by John Stevenson on 18/11/2011 09:21:29:
JESUS H CHRIST ON A PUSH BIKE
 

John -
 
When 2 or 3 model engineers are gathered together, they shal find something to whine about. Ignore them - they are just talking blocks...
 
Regards,
Tony
Ketan Swali18/11/2011 12:45:15
1481 forum posts
149 photos
Posted by Diane Carney on 16/11/2011 23:38:41:
The whole point of the forum is to exchange ideas and information, is it not?. Recommending a product is perfectly acceptable. Spam is not. If the net benefits to the purveyor of the said product are sufficient to allow him buy a bag of expensive chips - then it's OK. Two bags? ... hmmm, we would have to look into it.
 
Diane
Hi Diane,
I think some clarification is needed here. I presume you mean that "the benefit to ARC of the said product are sufficient to allow ARC to buy JS a bag of expensive chips" is a little inaccurate. JS has a very good chippy near his house, and the real fact is that he buys me - ARCs representative the bags of chips! Spam or fish not allowed as I am a strict vegitarian. BTW the pound I owe JS is shown in the advert picture of the blocks.
Ketan.
Ketan Swali18/11/2011 12:47:44
1481 forum posts
149 photos
History: About a year ago, when JS was buying me another bag of expensive chips from his local chippy he asked me to consider having these blocks made.
Getting a new product made - simple or complicated, is an expensive and time consuming exercise.
After investing the money, there is still the risk of "will the factory make it right" and more importantly - "will it sell"?
For his efforts, JS has been given payment as a sub-contractor for his time for making the samples and the drawings, and he has bought ME a bag of chips.
In return for the bag of chips, and in recognition for his contribution (so that I can blame him if it went wrong), I named them the product Stevensons blocks.
There will be more things coming with the Stevensons name in front (again, to try and cover my commercial back side).
Keeping all of the above in mind, YES I am very grateful to JS for this idea, and I am very grateful that Bogs has brought it to many peoples attention.
If you wish, you CAN call THIS a blatent advert, as I am not hiding behind anyones name or ghost. Ketan at ARC.
David Clark 118/11/2011 13:56:29
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi There
This is no different to putting it in the magazines as trade topics etc.
It is a useful product that performs a useful function.
regards David
 
 
Roger Woollett18/11/2011 14:15:41
148 forum posts
6 photos
MichaelG finds metric cap heads too big. I find that stainless screws have heads that are smaller and neater. They may not be up to his exacting standards but they might be worth looking at.

Roger Woollett
S.D.L.18/11/2011 15:38:47
236 forum posts
37 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/11/2011 11:46:23:
Steve [S.D.L.]

"Why would anyone ..."
.

If you can let me know of anywhere that I can obtain metric series, high tensile caphead screws; with small diameter heads and fine tolerances, then I shall happily withdraw my suggestion.

MichaelG.
 
As far as I can tell the head dia on 1/4 UNC/UNF cap heads is .375" and a M6 is 10mm about .393". I know many claim size matters, but does a18 thou (0.5mm) difference make much difference?
 
So I cant see anyone making then in imperial sizes.
 
Steve Larner
JasonB18/11/2011 16:41:39
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25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
If you have problems with the head size then just turn them down to a Dia that suits, simples.
 
J
 
PS Ketan did JS mention that his local chippy cook their chips in Beef Dripping
Michael Gilligan18/11/2011 17:06:25
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23121 forum posts
1360 photos
John S. and Roger W.
Thanks for the update ... it's a good job I have some old capheads in stock
I take your point; and, from a business perspective, I'm sure you are right.

Steve [S.D.L.]
Surely your measurements support my point. ... Don't forget that 1/4" is 6.35mm.
Just to humour me: Try drawing an overlay, at [say] 10x life size, of a 1/4" UNF and an M6 ... each in their standard clearance holes. ... It's the relative proportion that matters.

I won't be labouring this any further.

Many thanks to John S. and Ketan Swali, for what looks like an excellent product at a realistic price.

MichaelG.
Ketan Swali18/11/2011 17:11:43
1481 forum posts
149 photos
Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2011 16:41:39:

 
PS Ketan did JS mention that his local chippy cook their chips in Beef Dripping

Haha, I know it was veg.oil....even though the fish...sausages etc. might/were cooked in it. you cant taste the foreign matter when the chips are nice and hot....so it doesnt really matter.

Ketan Swali18/11/2011 17:24:58
1481 forum posts
149 photos
The only issue I have with the imperial form request is commercial. If we would have made them with imprerial measures for thread and block sizes, we ran the risk of them being compared with the competitors/ebay imports. then you would also have the issue of "I can get it cheaper from Hong Kong brigade"....by cheating the U.K. tax system....not pay duty/vat U.K. overheads etc.....and there will always be the person who can get it cheaper in U.S.A.......failing to point out that the prices stated there are excluding tax most of the time....so they want you to always think that we live in so called "rip-off" Britain. Pointless to get involved in this kind of commercial talk. It does cost me a lot more to have these especially made, but atleast I do not have to deal with commercial BS.
 
Secondly, we are starting to realise that demand from our customer base is growing towards the metric side. I am not saying that imperial is wrong, but commercially, I need sales, so for the time being, we will continue with the metric.
 
Thanks, Ketan at ARC.
Bogstandard18/11/2011 19:15:13
263 forum posts
What in the world are you lot arguing over, surely not what type of thread was used and the size of the heads?
 
Talk about a load of prats. Didn't you read my article, well you must have done if you brought up the point.
 
The stainless cap screws have about the largest head that is generally available on a screw this size, and I raised the point that although close, there were no issues of them hitting each other or overhanging the edges. IMHO, John had done his measuring spot on.
 
I will just say one thing, I raised this post to maybe help people, nothing more.
But there are just too many know it alls who just want to cause trouble and strife just for the sake of putting words on a page. Have you nothing better to do?
If I raised a post stating that most text in these posts is black, some prat would pipe up and argue over it.
 
From now on, you will have to search the web yourselves to find out about things like these blocks. It just isn't worth my trouble if this is what happens every time.
 
Bogs
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