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Ian S C	21/11/2009 07:12:08
7468 forum posts 230 photos	Twenty years ago,not long after starting to do a bit of lathe work,I started building hot air engines.The hot end I desided should be stainless steel, I went out and bought some,a lump of 316 and started into it,drill it out then bore it to size,the swafe came of in great streamers with an edge like a razor,I managed to avoid getting caught in it and didn't get too many cuts(it cut the gloves I was wearing as I cut the stuff up),I now use a chip breaker when cutting non free cutting metals.IAN S C
Ian Abbott	21/11/2009 12:04:02
279 forum posts 21 photos	I have to admit to being a little shy of solvents. About twenty years ago, a university (place of higher learning and integrity) cheaped out of venting their artists studios. Now, I can't feel my hands and feet, with varying levels of sensory and motor control in between them and my head. This was supposed to be a change of career from the engineering stuff and I was working in theatre design. I don't work in theatre now, I don't walk with a stick any more, and I can stay upright on the Enfield, but drawing is hit and miss and anything other than a flat road means frequent stops to let the legs catch up. Think multiple sclerosis without the inconvenience of having a disease. I take a cocktail of drugs every day (and for the rest of my life) to control the pain and other symptoms. I like to think that others may learn to avoid crap like this by being very, very, careful. Removing curmudgeon hat. Ian
John Stevenson	21/11/2009 14:03:10
5068 forum posts 3 photos	Will it be all right to go into the workshop today. The reason I ask is that I have just done a risk assessment and I have 440v electrics up to 200 amp per phase, some multi coloured machine with whirly peripheries like chucks and cutters that can't be fully guarded, a drum of original trichloroethane, various drums of transformer oil, loads of neat cutting oil, some titanium, 17 2 BA screws, 20 foot of 3" diameter magnesium stored opposite the welding bench for safety, God knows how many cubic feet of aluminium, 3 MIg welders, three stick welders, 2 Tig welders and a plasma cutter. Do you think the BA screws are a safety risk ? John S.
David Clark 1	21/11/2009 14:38:05
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi John Screws are not safe. You might swallow one. regards David
Circlip	21/11/2009 15:07:55
1723 forum posts	Only if you can climb over the other bits to get to them.
chris stephens	21/11/2009 15:54:45
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Ian, I am truly sorry to hear of your health problems and you do have my sympathy but if I may play Devils Advocate for a moment, do the others from your class suffer in the same way? It is a fact that there are some people who are more susceptible to certain stimuli than others, witness the child who is allergic to sunlight. Hindsight is not a very good teacher, but who knew. Hi John and David, Screws are not safe, think of Herpes, Aids or pregnancy. Someone had to say it and I drew the short straw. chriStephens
Bob	21/11/2009 19:17:34
51 forum posts 1 photos	(Second attempt to post this, I was sure I was logged in, hit the post button only to be informed that you must be logged in to use this feature so here is a much shortened version) One or two points of fact (I hope)... Almost any metal will burn if it is sufficiently finely divided and mixed with air or oxygen. The classic chemistry demonstration was pyrophoric lead made by heating lead tartrate and excluding oxygen as the lead dust cooled. This powder would spontaneously burst into flames when poured from the phial ito the air. The white sparks seen when F1 cars bottom out are the result of titanium being abraded away from the underside skid plates. (probably see lots more of those next season with the banning of refuelling during the races) So I am not surprised to learn that titanium swarf can catch fire. I know of an incident in a local engineering firm (now, alas, closed) where an expensive CNC lathe was destroyed by a magnesium fire. I suspect there are more issues than inflamability surrounding machining titanium as I have tried drilling holes in the stuff and find it work hardens like some stainless steels. Minor point, but when magnesium burns in air the main product is white magnesiun oxide ( and smaller amounts of magnesium nitride and possibly trace amounts of carbon) I would not worry too much about the basic nature of this oxide as it is the active ingredient in many antacids used to treat indigestion (Milk of Magnesia) Carbon Tetrachloride is very nasty and should be avoided at all costs. It is thermally decomposed to carbonyl chloride, also known as phosgene. The mustard gas reference is an understandable misconception as both were used in chemical warfare. The long term dangers of carbon tetrechlorde include cancers so find another safer solvent. In general, treat all organic solvents with respect. They are miscible with the fatty membranes that surround cells, especially nerve cells in your body so it should be no surprise that they are bad news. I remember seeing glue sniffers at Birmingham New Street station in the late 1970s. An image that should serve as a reminder of the dangers of solvents. A couple of things that have not be mentioned yet in this thread are cadmium (found in Easyflo No.2 silver solder) and the dangers of welding galvanised steel. I remember a lot of information in the Model Engineer about the nature of the dangers from cadmium in silver solders. As I recall there was a fatality where the engineer had been engaged in silver soldering, but I don't know if it was the cadmium to blame. I think the advice at the time was to avoid cadmium bearing alloys, but if you needed to use cadmium bearing alloys to not use oxy-acetylene (too hot for silver brazing anyway) and to work in a well-ventilated space. I think Tubal Cain published some estimates of the air-bourne levels of cadmium that seemed very low as long as common sence precautions were followed, but I wonder how they stand up against modern advice. Cadmium is a nasty cumulative poison and suspected carcinogen. Welding galvanised steel is another bad idea. Bob
chris stephens	21/11/2009 20:03:46
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Bob, You mention common sense, if only it were as common as the name suggests. I find it a shame that there are not Degree level courses at Uni in "common sense", much more useful to the world than say "Media Studies". Such a Degree would be able to negate a lot of safety warnings and some machine guards. I know a lot of warnings have to be for a worst case scenario, i.e. say using Cadmium silver solder all-day, every day in industry. Not the occasional use for five minutes, twice a year, in our home workshops, where exposure levels are minimal. Should we be denied the use of useful products because of possible abuse in commercial situations? I only pose the question for you guys to ponder. chriStephens PS Re your lack of posting ability. When you are asked to login, despite clearly being logged on, go to top of the page and login, then hit the left hand pointing arrow on your browser, do this till you get back to the page you were writing on, your words of wisdom should be there still, (might take a second or two for them to come back) you can then hit "add posting" and all should be well. Happens all the time to me, at first I thought it was censorship, now I know it is a flaw in the system, designed to make people write speedy replies!
mgj	21/11/2009 20:14:37
1017 forum posts 14 photos	Bob - if you want to see uranium burn- take a look at some of those shots of Iraqi tanksbeing brewed up. Those white feathery plumes are very typical of the pyrophoric effcts of DU, and the U turning into an oxide under extremes of temp and pressure. The bright white sparks from Ti are a positive identifier. I don't think its dodgy to grind it particularly - its just that the sparks are very white, in the same way that tool steel sparks are a fairly dull red.
ChrisH	21/11/2009 21:03:29
1023 forum posts 30 photos	OK Boss - but I must be doing something wrong - where are the photos of the Iraqi tanks brewing up? ChrisH
mgj	21/11/2009 21:58:43
1017 forum posts 14 photos	Sorry - I hadn't done a link - I was just making an observation. You'll have to Google it or something. American will be air either the Warthog with its GAU8 30mm, or Apache with is baby 20mm. Brit will be tank to tank. Either war. Its just interesting to see the differences in the H&S implications for each side.
John Stevenson	21/11/2009 22:28:17
5068 forum posts 3 photos	MGJ, Very true, in WWII they has to radius the tail fins on the 25 pounders because of sharp edges. If one of these had hit some Censored on the ground it would have killed them. John S. Keep it clean please John! Edited By David Clark 1 on 22/11/2009 09:42:15
Ian Abbott	22/11/2009 11:54:27
279 forum posts 21 photos	Hi Chris, Yes several people were left with substantial damage. Entire classes succumbing to fumes in the short term, had to be moved out of rooms where the fumes were being pumped out of one studio and into the fresh air intake of some classrooms. As you say not everyone is affected in the same way. In the US, there were a large number of successful lawsuits against petroleum companies and educational institutions. In Canada, (don't know about UK regulations) a lot of people were left destitute; they can't work at a steady job, disability payments are difficult to get, unless one is missing the odd head and they can't contribute to pension schemes, so they don't get a federal pension worth mentioning. A number of lawsuits were initiated in Canada, but none made it through the system. This Canadian university made a deal with the Worker's Compensation Board to designate all students at the university as "employees". Under the provincial legislation, employees cannot take legal action against an employer when covered but must claim through the provincial WCB. The WCB was set up basically to prevent payments to workers if at all possible. Managers were given bonuses for how much cash they saved by cheating injured workers. A lot of noise started enquiries, but I doubt that it has changed. There is an organization in New York who advocate for safety in the arts, but it's uphill and they can only act for people in the US. They can be very helpful in identifying problem situations though. The health and safety crowd are a nuisance, usually over the top, so most people tend to not take them seriously. If they were more sensible in their approach, then we may take notice of them. I reckon that more people are injured because of too much safety legislation than would be with more rational approach. Ian
Richard Marks	22/11/2009 12:25:28
218 forum posts 8 photos	Gentlemen Having read all of the details regarding the dangers of titanium, It occured to me that I may have inadvertently put myself in a dangerous situation! In the last year I had two titanium inserts fitted in my lower jaw to support my lower denture, this was never a problem until I read this column on safety, I know need to know from the erudite gentlemen who contribute to this site the answer to a life threatening question? At what speed can I eat a bacon sandwitch before my jawbone catches fire? Regards Dick
John Stevenson	22/11/2009 13:21:45
5068 forum posts 3 photos	I am very sorry to tell you Richard but this is no lower speed limit, Continue to type your responses, learn Braille and send me the bacon sandwich [ with mushroom and brown sauce ] John S. PS was this clean enough for you David ?
Geoff Theasby	22/11/2009 16:39:05
615 forum posts 21 photos	Richard, I understand that titanium is often used in surgery because new bone will grow on it. Never mind bacon sandwiches, what about hot chilli? Regards Geoff
Martin Cottrell	22/11/2009 16:50:47
297 forum posts 18 photos	Posted by Richard Marks on 22/11/2009 12:25:28: Gentlemen Having read all of the details regarding the dangers of titanium, It occured to me that I may have inadvertently put myself in a dangerous situation! In the last year I had two titanium inserts fitted in my lower jaw to support my lower denture, this was never a problem until I read this column on safety, I know need to know from the erudite gentlemen who contribute to this site the answer to a life threatening question? At what speed can I eat a bacon sandwitch before my jawbone catches fire? Regards Dick Richard, I too am the owner of some dental titanium hardware and can report no overheating problems with bacon sandwiches, whatever speed they are consumed at. However there is one by-product that can cause a serious health problem to the unweary eater. This is in the form of minute particles of said sandwich being cast off in the eating process known to "she who must be obeyed" as 'crumbs'. These crumbs apparently manage to disperse themselves 'all over the house' in severe circumstances which incurs copious ear-bashing and a spell of punishment with the vacuum cleaner! An in depth risk assessment lead me to the conclusion that the risk could be minimised to an acceptable level either by use of a plate to catch said crumbs or by having the sandwich delivered to the workshop where crumbs have been proven to have no detrimental side effects when mixed with a wide variety of workshop detritus. Hope this puts your mind at rest! Regards, Martin.
Circlip	22/11/2009 16:51:48
1723 forum posts	OH yes, VERY droll, you Censored s won't be laughing when yer jaws explode. Regards Ian. PS. sensored it meself to save you the bother David.
David Colwill	22/11/2009 17:50:59
782 forum posts 40 photos	I feel that I should point out the very real danger posed by the use of titanium when used as inserts for dentistry as it specifically relates to model engineers. Extensive research has shown that when two model engineers are in talking distance of each other a great deal of hot air can be produced. This sometimes superheated gas can cause almost any material to spontaneously ignite but is especially dangerous with metals like titanium and magnesium. Further to this organic materials like the ear drum can sustain significant damage if subjected to repeated exposure symptoms include headaches, nausea and an annoying buzzing in the ear. I have recently developed a special asbestos hat which can protect the wearer from these dangers. Please send check or postal order for £300.00 to AsbestoHat Ltd for instant protection.
mgj	22/11/2009 19:04:31
1017 forum posts 14 photos	Or you buy 2 spark arrestors - that way you can be certain of catching them all, whichever way they go.

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