British machine tools

I'm not sure I entirely agree with you Paul. yes I am horrified at the sound quality people accept from i-products, even compared to other phones, and despise the fact that most digital radio is mono(!) a lot of stuff from the far east is very good.

My (Chinese made) Nikon digital bridge camera's photos knock spots off anything I was able to achieve with my old Pentax SP1000. I like my old Hameg scope, but I'd happily swap it for a new digital one.

I've seen the difference between a cheap 'baby lathe' of old British manufacture (Super Adept by F.W. Portass) and new Chinese manufacture (C0 Bay by Seig). compared to average wages they are similar prices , but the Seig is streets ahead in every respect: finish, fit, accuracy.

I'm not saying some British stuff isn't very good, but I think many tales of how bad imports are are often exaggerated. It's like judging the British car industry solely on the Morris Marina or the Austin Allegro.

Neil

I agree completely and I've been spending a lot of time thinking about it, and I'm finding issues, not conclusions or solutions.

Doing any sort of trade in the UK.......

Consider fuel duty "A"
tax on premises (for storage perhaps) "B"
Energy prices "C"
overall tax "D"

Company 1 Buys stock and sell it to Company 2 - it accumulated A,B,C and D for them to get it and sell it.
Company 2 pay delivery to the courier (who has to pay A & B on his van and C on his storage, D overall)
Company 2 then pays B,C and D, to sell it to company 3 who then pay a courier....... etc. etc. around, and around - perhaps to the end user, who earn't his money from what little turnover company 1 made, who then had to pay tax on it as earning....

And why not consider, the cost of the machines that the stock or part was made on, which must be paid back - if that machine was also made under the same circumstances it's also going to have accumulated similar expense which will be pushed on to all it's "children" - the issue just compounds itself, again and again and again - where is all this money filtering too, and what the hell are "they"doing with it all?

How much did company 1, 2 or the courier actually get, the smart person would simply move company 1, 2, 3 and the courier to somewhere else in the world - problem halved or better?

every time you lift a cheek to fart in the UK someone either charges you money, you get taxed or you get fined - isn't it fun - I can see why other countries are better choices for manufacturing - and it runs far deeper than just labour rates.

no question marks! rant over

Happy Tuesday!

Edited By Russ B on 05/08/2014 15:10:32

It's fun to generalize and be patriotic but it's pretty futile IMHO.

There are good and bad Far East manufacturers, as John S's recent visit to China showed, and we all know that there are good and bad British manufacturers. It will always be thus.

The only generalization I think we can legitimately make is that people are the same everywhere and as such; some are conscientious and some are rip-off merchants and some are corner cutters. It is independent of country.

Another generalization could be that marketing hype is and always has been the enemy of the consumer.

Jon

I'm not so sure about the vinyl being better than CDs but the old loudspeakers such as my Rogers, knock spots of the modern miniature ones. It is a physical impossibility for a small speaker to give good results at reasonable volume. The large cone excursion required for bass notes gives non linearity distortion and phase shift intermodulation with higher notes due to the Doppler effect although there is some argument over the audibility of the latter.

Am I becoming a grumpy old man?

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 06/08/2014 11:29:59

Hi Russell

| "Am I becoming a grumpy old man?"

Probably but I've found that it crept up on me too - so just enjoy it!

Following a fairly extensive period ( 12 months?) of being "out of action" due to rearrangement, rejigging of rewiring and decoration of the sitting room my Hi Fi is now back in action. ( Denon units and Wharfdale speakers) The really nice thing is that it's like rediscovering my music collection all over again.

The problems with today's obsession with instant results and miniaturisation doesn't end with audio however. I "do" a lot of photography - a process that I find requires some care and thought to produce good results. The advent of the mobile phone is a real asset - in creating badly framed, poorly exposed and out of focus images. The bonus is , of course, that these can then be instantly shared with the rest of the world ( whether the rest of the world wants them or not!)

( Surprising how a little rant can help!)

Norman

Edited By NJH on 06/08/2014 12:26:47

I'll extend the rant

Russell should have a listen to my Roksan Xeres MC2000 setup. 25 year ago that was around £3300. Compare against Meridian active setup starting at 10k 23 years ago, mine was chalk and cheese.

Remember this was still in the day when Phillips brainwashed the untrained for near on a decade before being proven wrong in the 90's, but the damage was done. Forget the slogan but of the order perfect sound, well you cant have that if one DAC or transport is better than another.

Russ its also why many US and English companies the last two years are setting up manufacturing back in homeland. Chinese labour has massively risen to not that far off our own along with transport, lack of quality control anything will do attitude. Its far cheaper to write container after container load off rather than go through ordeal of sending the work back.

The only companies that do well out of this far eastern manufacture are homeland big brass standing over manufacturing plants. ie VW and the like they have their own chief whips stating how things must be done with no penny pinching or short cuts.

Its been well over two decades Myford stuff made in china, tell tale sign 1/2" extra bed length on ML7. Funny link above to Student 2500 is actually an M300 design from late 60's, Colchester always had hand wheel on other side of cross slide. Would I buy a new one, no, old yes even if it needed a regrind.

Harrison were much dearer than Colchester late 50's early 60's so I was told.

The final statement is why would a 3rd world of old country buy up everything going British to start manufacturing! They are not mugs ands don't want to keep on repairing machinery.

Hi Norman,

The quality of a photo is down to the photographer and also to luck; sometimes the camera itself is incidental. I make no apology for reposting this pic taken on my mobile phone. Could I have taken it on my bridge camera? Possibly. On my SLR, no way.

Neil

Oh dear Neil – I seem to have hit a bit of a nerve with you there which was not my intention!

I don’t think I can agree that the quality of an image is down to the photographer alone. He will always have an input to this by using his knowledge and skill to maximise what his camera can produce but it is not likely that a low quality camera will produce a high quality image. Luck really has little to do with it other than being in the right place at the right time and seizing the moment – and this was where you were with your photo. I also accept that different images have different requirements. Your shot of the Deltic is less about the loco and more about its unusual situation – as such it is an interesting capture and obviously has meaning for you. The quality is sufficient for its purpose. (I doubt it would make an A3 print however!)

My beef is with the avalanche of poorly framed, poorly exposed, uninteresting, images such as those posted on the likes of Facebook, Instagram etc. - hence my rant!

Regards

Norman

PS. Referring to your earlier post,  I had THREE Austin Allegros Mk 1,2 & 3!  passed on to me, at very advantageous prices, by a kind Aunt  who bought them new. I will concede -  not too good for my "street cred" but as a hard up father of three I was grateful. I also learned how to change a water pump in about twenty minutes during my lunch break. (I had to do this quite often!)

N

Edited By NJH on 06/08/2014 18:43:55

Really? The legal minimum monthly salary in China is between £96 and £156 depending on the region.

Vinyl record players, valve amplifiers, gold plated connectors etc. are sold on marketing hype not measured performance.

Russell (ex Philips research engineer)

That's part of my point Norman, the photo taken on my crummy phone (it's held toghether by four copper rivets and a hair band) will happily fill an A4 page at 300dpi, and looking at the 1:1 crop below (click on it to see full size), I'm pretty sure it would stand being used at A3. I've seen less sharp pictures used for six-foot tall pullup banners.

Bear in mind that was taken through an uncleaned curved glass windscreen with a lens about 2mm across, and both the Deltic and the car I was passenger in were moving so I had to move quickly!.

I'm most pleased with the composition and the colour balance/contrast (both of which are unedited), as much as with the subject. This from a camera that as part of the phone probably cost only a few pounds.

We do have to rethink our ideas on price and quality.

Neil

I take it you have never ever heard a decent record deck or amp Russell, theres a lot more to it than just measured performance but it goes a long way.

If measuring so called performance on what Phillips used to produce to what was thrust upon us, its rather meaningless. Like comparing a Wartburg to a Ford yet alone a Roller. DVD/Blueray does have its uses better suited to video and in the car with CD more reliant on tonal quality than performance.

Recall the hype now "Perfect sound" If it was perfect there would be no difference in performance as proved wrong, tonal qualities and detail. I will exclude soundstaging and depth, never heard light do what the mechanical method can do, hence the word 'can' mine don't snap crackle and pop.

Gold is the best conductor of electricity, again theres a lot more to it than measured performance that wont show up. Its been noted and established for decades that gold, silver, copper, brass, steel, tin and lead offer different tonal qualities and losses easily picked out on a cheap setup. Same with the types of caps, diodes, resistors used throughout or in designated places and cheap to do.

I do buy CD for car and DVD for video where it better suited, we don't own a cd for home probably why we no longer listen to music as mrs broke cartridge on record deck and cant use. Sure miss the 3D effect and soundstaging of vinyl uncoloured!

Neil

| "...........a camera that as part of the phone probably cost only a few pounds."

All I can say Neil is that I ( and lots of my photo friends) must have been wasting our money then!

What do you want for the phone, rivets and hair band?

N

Neil,

Curiosity aroused ... What model is the 'phone ?

MichaelG.

Just a Nokia C5.

The 'phone basically does everything what would have been called a 'compact 35mm' camera will do, but better. Hugely better than an instamatic and even an Olympus Trip (I gave my Brother a nice example last Christmas).

Aside from the unused Pentax SP1000, Yashicamat TLR and sundry compacts, I have two bridge cameras, both Nikon, the £150 one took great pictures and enthused me to upgrade to a £250 one to get full manual control. It's amazing. It replaces and exceeds the performance and range of the Pentax covered by about six lenses.

To 'upgrade' to an SLR with the same capabilities would cost me a fortune, and I can't justify the extra costs in exchange for the marginal quality improvements.

I know a professional photographer whose standard camera body cost him about £6,000. He uses an inexpesive bridge camera for macro work as the results are superior, largely due to increased depth of field, but also because of the ease of handling.

Neil

Naturally I have listened to "decent" record decks, starting perhaps with Garrard transcription decks in the 1950s and 60s. The problems arise not really with the turntable but with the records themselves. They are noisy and non-linear. Of course many audiophiles today look upon such distortion and that in valve amplifiers with nostalgia.

As for measurements, I've been involved not only with scientific measurements but also with properly controlled blind testing comparing live instruments with recordings. How to you know that the sound you hear is correct without proper tests?

Gold is not the best conductor silver is which is why it is used on profesional connectors. Can you give a reference to real double blind tests that compare the "sound" of different metals by some mechanism that cannot be measured?

I will leave this now as you are obviously convinced that your expensive set up is the bee's knees and who am I to disillusion you?

Russell.

While I feel the Hi-Fi debate should be confined to Hi-Fi forums, I just had to comment.

Hi-Fi is one area where UK manufacturers still reign, Naim, Michell, SME to name just a few.
I do have a foot in both ME and Hi-Fi camps. I have a reasonable Vinyl and CD/digital system. Good vinyl on a decent system will blow away CD any day. CD was a seriously compromised format. The higher resolution digital downloads are getting much closer. I agree vinyl is not perfect, but it delivers a really enjoyable sound.. As for the comment "I will leave this now as you are obviously convinced that your expensive set up is the bee's knees and who am I to disillusion you?" Anyone who comes around to our house and has a listen on my system is completely blown away by the sound quality. I have also had a very enjoyable day at Naim Audio's HQ in Salisbury where after touring their factory we spent the afternoon listening to music on a £100K system. Outrageous cost - yes( but not the most expensive available), enjoyable - immensely. Would I spend that money, no. But I will spend £20 on new vinyl rather than £10 on a new CD, because it is much more enjoyable. Pure nostalgia absolutely not. I also enjoy the vinyl I bought 30 years ago, still going strong and sound much better with the newer kit I am playing it.

Back on topic are there any firms making a business out of refurbishing small industrial (British) lathes? Apart from the service some OEMs do of a hideously expensive refurb. I wonder if it would pay nowadays as there are still a fair number of old manual machines being replaced by CNC but also still small machine shops doing one-offs that want a quality manual machine.

Neil, I'm still waiting for some pictures of bridges. Interesting that you are sufficiently keen to have a special bridge camera. Is the lens designed for the extra wide shot that entails?

No green CD pens in here please!

My observation, having had some experience at the start of the recording chain, is that the cost and quality of the recording equipment is far less than top quality playback equipment... £100K would set you up with a professional quality recording studio.

You can judge good hifi because you can hear the mistakes in the original recording.

Neil

Just two commentsm as I seem to have triggered a Hi-fi debate in an engineering site, which I never intended to do,

1) Music IS analogue, it is a collection of complex rising and falling sine waves, so no matter how often you sample it, you still lose something

2) Colchester always had hand wheel on other side of cross slide.

Not correct, straight bed machines had the handwheel on the left of the cross slide, gap bed handwheel was on the right.

What I wanted to highlight was that generations are being educated to accept that only the most modern product is any good, and anything that is newer MUST be better. Things do improve eventually, in the 60's the japanese produced tinny transistor radios that sounded awful, by the seventies they made some of the worlds best hi-fi. In the same period the Taiwanese made some awful machine tools, but they have got better. Look at what happened to the british motorcycle industry and the car industry too. The chinese machines may improve (by all accounts they need to) But who would buy one when it seems there is virtually no quality control, and a good machine is followed off the production line by a bad one. Give me old Britsh anytime. I do have a Warco Taiwan floor standing drill given to me by a relative, but you need ear defenders to use it, and it was bought new, and little used by its previous owner. Its accuracy is suspect to say the least. My other stand drill is a Grafton (USA i think), probably 1940's/50's and hums away quietly and accurately. I also have A Colchester student Mk1, an early Covmac(Coventry machine tools) 13" geared head lathe, a Raglan V mill (in bits) A harrison 1970's metric H mill and an Alfred Herbert precision drill awaiting restoration. I can live with a drill press from the colonies, but British Iron rules for me!

I would tend to agree there Phil, newcomers in to machining would know no better the only machines that pop out are the marketed ones notably from Asia. Same here I do have a large Asian bench drill with British motor, last time it was used must be 1991 for a couple of months.

Some of the Asian stuff is not too bad but will depend on actual model, I am toying with a Bridgy or 942 variant having used one 16 years ago. I do buy tools based upon intended use and whether it would last. So my main lathe used daily for business needs to be robust should we say and not pack up mid job. Thats why I chose British Iron along with the features uncopied to date from china.

Technically your correct but Colchester synonymous for having hand wheel on the right, Harrison on the left since WW2.

Also agree the Japanese do make some proper quality stuff but know how to charge. Try telling them their products are wrong going through 9th attempt with something at the moment each needing import and export licence.

What we have nowadays is old established US, German and British companies that built their reputation on sheer quality the last couple of decades have tried to pull the wool over peoples eyes with products made in Asia to an unconceivable sub standard no better than unbranded.