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Miniature welding

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John Stevenson09/01/2011 12:03:34
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
This is what has become an everyday job for me as people who visit will confirm.
 
Bridgeport Varispeed rotor, worn as usual.
 

 
Turned down undersize on the worn part and welded back up, continuous weld.
 

Final machining.
 

Time for a cuppa and bring on the next one.
 
chris stephens09/01/2011 12:07:58
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Guys,
As usual John has it right, modern techniques are amazing.  A friend of mine works for one of the V. expensive Swiss watch makers and they use Laser welding kit to repair cracks in wrist watch cases. I am told that it is so fine that little or no clean up is necessary. Downside, I hear you ask. Of course there is a downside £15K price tag for one.
Just remembered,  reading in a book on welding about being able to weld razor blades to anvils with a Laser welding kit, nice to be able to but I don't see much call for it myself.
 
Jewellers have a nifty bit of kit, they use mains powered Oxy-Hydrogen generators, which uses all metal hypodeemic nurdles as the jet. As you can imagine it produces a very fine flame. 
chriStephens
I now sit back and wait for all the 50 year welders to mutter "hydrogen embrittlement" 
Andrew Johnston09/01/2011 12:38:55
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7061 forum posts
719 photos
I would have thought it was perfectly possible to achieve what the OP is asking; given enough skill and the right equipment. See this website:
 
 
I certainly don't have the skill, but that doesn't mean others don't either.
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
Terryd09/01/2011 13:08:26
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Hi Chris and Andrew,
 
Of course it is possible given the right kit and skills .  I never said it wasn't.  I said that given a £200 - £300 piece of kit and limited or no experience of welding it was unlikely that Paul would be able to achieve what he intended.  Not that it wasn't possible.
 
Chris,
 
No one said that modern techniques were not amazing, it was not only John that said or thought it, but a laser welding kit is not likely in a home workshop.  I thought that this was a discussion of what was possible in a home workshop given relatively cheap equipment, not a treatise on modern industrial welding techniques.  I do wish that folks would read postings and answers accurately.
 
Terry

Edited By Terryd on 09/01/2011 13:09:43

John Stevenson09/01/2011 13:16:01
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
I think the skill can be easily learnt.
Today we have You tube which love it or hate it has some very good information on it. Many manufacturers are putting training video's up to promote sales.
 
I feel that given a few hours I could achieve what's required here, problem is I don't need the skill and can't justify the time spent at the moment.
 
It's well worth doing a search on You tube for TiG welding video's, at least you get to see practical examples and not theory.
 
[EDIT] This is an ideal starter machine, does stick and TiG on everything except aluminium
 
 
Usual no connection etc.

Edited By John Stevenson on 09/01/2011 13:24:33

Nicholas Farr09/01/2011 14:17:10
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi, I'm still a young'ne by the sounds of it, as I've only been welding for 42 years, not solid but frequently on a weekly time scale. in all sorts of situations from the bench to spots where you only hold a dark glass. As I've said in my first post, it will depend largely on your welding skill. The versitility of the equipment will help, but it is not the be all and end all of the process.
 
There are several differant skill levels from the jobber to the very refined. I class myself as very skilled in heavey duty stick and mig, I used to be very good at gas when it was still used frequently and before tig became cost effective for a lot of companies. In my old company I used to work for they just had one of the first add on affairs.
 
If you have a good skill only practice will improve it. In my time I've been able to weld things others could not, but on the other hand there were others who could weld (to make a good looking and sound job) that I myself could not get the hang of.
 
Therefore I think you need the skill ability in the first place. No equipment will make you a good welder if you don't have the skill. Modern gear may make an average skilled welder better, but it will still come down to practice makes perfect.
 
Pretty looking welds don;t make them sound. I've seen some very pretty looking welds on brand new equipment, but after being put into service for a couple of months or so, it has all cracked up and muggins here has had to go and cut it all out and reweld it, didn't look as pretty as the first weld, but it didn;t need doing again.
 
Regards Nick.
 
P.S. Been there done that got the T shirt for that sort of job John, some have 4" or so in diameter.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 09/01/2011 14:23:36

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 09/01/2011 14:24:39

Terryd09/01/2011 16:41:28
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Well damn me, all those years on my apprenticeship and at Tech. with all those tests to destruction to check penetration and strength (not to mention torsion, shear and tensile tests) and all those many hours on training courses year after year to upgrade my skills as new equipment and techniques were introduced, all wasted when I could have just spent a couple of hours on YouTube.
 
No wonder we make so little these days when the skills are so easily learned that any old Korean or Chinaman with an internet connection can pick them up, just wait 'til the jungle tribes of Borneo get broadband connections.
 
regards
 
Terry

P.S. Hi Nick, I also hated grinding out those failed welds and re-welding it was more difficult to get good looking welds than when doing virgin ones, it must have something to do with the change of composition of the parent metal during the original welding.  The worst bit which I hated was grinding out and re-welding when the X-rays revealed faults such as inclusions and porosity, usually in the most awkward of places.


Edited By Terryd on 09/01/2011 17:09:47

JasonB09/01/2011 17:25:40
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25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
Terry this is a good one on youtube, not sure if its quite what John had in mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgAThGrCV4A&feature=related
Nicholas Farr09/01/2011 17:45:56
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi Jason, forgive me for being a bit sceptical about that youtube video.
 
Regards Nick.
James fortin09/01/2011 17:49:58
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46 forum posts
12 photos
im sure the health and inspectors are pleased with the wiring in  the fuse box  
 
james 
peter walton09/01/2011 18:50:43
84 forum posts
Those oxygen/hydrogen welders had one big drawback - drawback in which the flame would disapear inside the needle, help switch off quick.
Plus the fact that they do not put out much in the way of heat, you could get more heat by bubbling the gas through some meths to put a bit more heat in the flame, still got that bit in the garage but junked the generator ages ago, just to slow and cold!!
 
Peter
Paul Boscott09/01/2011 18:52:11
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99 forum posts
21 photos
Thank you again for all of your contributions
 
And I will take that as a NO then and put my funds to some other way of doing it
 
Thank you all for your help
 
Paul
Terryd09/01/2011 20:32:41
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Gee Jason,
 
That's great, and to think of all those wasted years I spent training

Regards

Terry
Chris Trice09/01/2011 21:34:56
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1376 forum posts
10 photos
Paul, can I ask what the subject is and will it have to be heat proof? I'm a great believer in KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. If you can assemble the parts functionally using silver solder or soft solder, do so, but then fake the scale welds some other way. At least if they don't look pretty enough, they won't be a permanent addition and you can keep re-doing them until you get the visual look you like. It's the path of least grief.
Metal mover09/01/2011 23:41:55
1 forum posts
Paul, ask around to see if anyone near you has one of these inverter welders, you can weld M M A and touch T I G, if you find someone who well let you play, grind yourself a long fine piont on a 1mm tungsten,assemble a sample of that which you require to weld, place a scratch pad ajoining the sample, and get practicing, low amps good glasses,get in close to see what you are doing, brace your wrist for a steady hand,you will need to favour the thicker metal,  watch your weld pool which should be only slightly larger than the arc produced by the tungsten electrode, keep your nozzle angle to around 15 degrees and you should get a weld bead of around the size you are looking for. the only thing you can loose is a few shillings for gas and electric. good luck
 
John Stevenson09/01/2011 23:53:09
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
One way that may work better is to run along the joint and do a seam weld, this will give a smooth weld at that thickness with no weld pools.
Then experiment with the pulse settings and go back over it, every time it pulses it creates a weld pool and the characteristic half moon.
 
This way the welder is doing all the work,with the automatic pulse feature, all you have to do is get a constant feed so the weld pools are equal and even.
 
John S.
chris stephens10/01/2011 00:05:18
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Peter,
Have you got that the right way around? If you go to the manufacturers site  and about half way down the page there is a list of liquids that alter the temperature. To quote;
 
 
 Flame Temperature
The flame temperature together with its characteristic can be altered 
by passing the oxygen/hydrogen gas through the gas booster (as 
previously described).  The chart below compares a variety of solutions 
and the effect they have on the flame temperature:
Oxy Hydrogen 3300˚c
Methylated Spirit 2200˚c
M.E.K. 1850˚c
Acetone 1200˚c
Hydrogen has the greatest heat of combustion per unit weight of all common fuels, though obviously it is not exactly the heaviest of fuels! !!
 
I agree that they are very small units and so the maximum amount of heat generated is not great, although the temperature is quite high, but then jewellers don't need to weld 1/4 plate too often.
 
chriStephens
Terryd10/01/2011 06:32:25
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Hi Paul,
Having said all I have (which I stand by) it may be worth getting more information and advice from  people who have more specialist skills and knowledge.  There are Welding forums where it may be worth asking the question of those more expert.  You could start here.
 
Best of luck,
 
Terry
Ian S C10/01/2011 11:30:42
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7468 forum posts
230 photos
Did some experimenting today with my stick welder, and 1.5mm rod.  The aim , to weld a disc in the end of a tube to make a displacer for a hot air engine, the tube is .75mm thick chrome plated vacuum cleaner extention, the disc same material, flanged 3mm, the disc was put in the tube, and with the amps right down , I sort of dotted around the tube, its not pretty, but it sealed OK, and I think with practice it will improove looks wise, but the bead is fairly large.  Ian S C
Anders Eriksson10/01/2011 21:00:11
3 forum posts
There are TIG-type microwelders made for the jewelry industry. They are also used in horology. I believe they could definitely do the job if the parts are not to heat demanding.
They are not as expensive as the laser welding machines but may cost about 3000£.
One link to the manufacturer http://www.lampert.info/web/en and one link to a clockmaker using the technique.
http://www.geoffreywalkerclocks.co.uk/microwelding/microwelding.shtml
I have tried it and butt welding two pieces about 1x1 cm of stainless steel was easy holding the pieces.
Anders
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