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MEW 162 - Phoenix Battery Drills
Is this dangerous or what?
| David Clark 1 | 18/03/2010 13:24:46 |
 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
Having once seen an extension lead at a model railway exhibition where the plug was live, your suggestion about reversing the plugs would be dangerous.
I bet you never saw that coming?
Whatever you do, you will never get it right in the eyes of some people.
regards David
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| Baldric | 18/03/2010 13:33:14 |
| 195 forum posts 32 photos | Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 18/03/2010 12:21:48:
Incidently, whilst I haven't looked at the idea in any great detail, just suppose, the mains plugs and sockets used for the drill were wired the opposite way round to normal, ie the socket wired to the drill. This would mean that it was impossible to connect such a drill directly to the mains, would it not?
Not a good idea, just changes what can be plugged in, in this case the battery. There is also another amins connector type see here. This is/was used in the broadcast industry, problem was that the BBC used it the other way round to other comapnies, so hired equipment was a bit dodgy, but there again only engineers had to deal with it and no one was killed!
My take on this is that for an experiment it is OK, but there ought to be a warning against it for long term use, just use a different connector.
Baldric |
| Garth | 18/03/2010 13:45:56 |
| 24 forum posts | Hello Peter, I agree in general with your point of view. I am amazed with all the safety inspectors running around and insurance company's backed by the legal profession are forever sticking there noses into all areas of our lives bemoaning the safety angle when we really know it is another method of screwing money out of us. It is in a large part in Australia, don't get me wrong I am not against standards of safety ,but I look back over 50 years of engineering and electrical engineering and wonder how I managed to survive without all these safety experts telling me how to do things.  One point Peter we don't reverse the plug and socket sequence as this would expose " live" pins which could easily short out in contact with metalwork. Regards Garth. |
| Peter G. Shaw | 18/03/2010 15:14:15 |
 1531 forum posts 44 photos | Re: my reversal suggestion. Given that the "plug" would, I assume, be hard connected, ie screwed to the battery box, it would, I suggest be somewhat difficult to connect the battery to the mains! Indeed, I would suggest that only someone with a death wish would be able to do it. As I said, putting the "socket" on the end of a flying lead from the drill would prevent anyone from connecting the drill directly to the mains. Exposure of the "live" pins is a possibility, but this is only from the battery. And before anyone tries to tell me about the energy potential of lead-acid batteries, may I remind you that my career was in telecommunications which run, or at least used to run, on 50V DC, normally from rectifiers, with a large, indeed very large lead-acid battery backup, and depending on size of exchange using many hundreds of amps as a normal matter. Actually I was aware of that when I wrote what I did, and it was meant a bit tongue in cheek, but may I point out a precedent? My car and caravan are linked together by a plug and socket arrangement. Both car and caravan have a battery in them. Guess what, in both instances live 12v dc can be found across two of the terminals in both the socket and the plug. Admittedly, in both instances protected by a 10A fuse - as I found out when the wiring on the car went short-circuit, and after repair still didn't charge the caravan battery! So, in respect of my suggestion, which was, as I have said, initially written tongue in cheek, perhaps it's not so daft after all. Fit a fixed "plug" on the battery box with a 15A fuse between the "plug" and the battery, and a "socket" on the end of a flying lead from the drill: the drill cannot be connected to the mains, and whilst the battery box could, it is extremely unlikely that it would happen. Vanishingly small, I would suggest. Having written the above, I now have a further suggestion to make which will, I think, cover a lot of the points that have been mentioned in this thread. Why not use a caravan plug and socket? The old 7 pin type I admit does have some problems caused by sideways movement, ie "waggling" whilst trying to separate the two. But, with seven pins, one could link three together for the positive, the other three for the negative thus increasing the current capacity, and leave the centre pin (say) unused. But, the sockets come with spring loaded covers thus weather proofing the socket, and the same cover also tends to assist in holding the plug in place. Furthermore, the sockets come designed to be attached to a flat surface and usually have three holes ready for such attachment. In fact, one could go even further (possibly) and wire it up just as a car/caravan would be, hence allowing the drill to be used from the car. Ok, ok, I know there is nowadays often an auxiliary power socket somewhere in the car. Regards, |
| Peter G. Shaw | 18/03/2010 15:56:37 |
1531 forum posts 44 photos | On further reflection about my plug/socket reversal idea, it would, I assume, be possible for someone to use an extension lead to connect a battery box direct to the mains. I've got to say this, because if I don't someone else will, I have no doubt, point it out to me, but we are surely getting into the realms of fantasy now. Regards, Peter G. Shaw |
| john fletcher 1 | 18/03/2010 16:42:53 |
| 893 forum posts | I have made a power supply and run 2 of my 18 volt drills from it, the PSU also dubs as variable volt power supply using a 5 amp voltage regulator chip.I remove the duff battery, drill a hole in the side of the battery box, put a substancial piece of flex through the hole, solder the flex to the original battery connection and partially fill the box with sand and cement to ensure it stands upright. Regarding over voltage, I have never as yet had a motor or its electronics fail due to over voltage.Folk get to involved with imagining problems which just might exist. I have other drils which work well after giving the cells some extremely rough treatment. The problem appears to be that owners never fully discharge the Ni-cads, but keep topping them up.I have Ni-cads more than 15years old and still keep working well, not as they did when new but useful never the less. |
| Peter G. Shaw | 18/03/2010 17:40:03 |
1531 forum posts 44 photos | John, Way back in the '70's there was an article in Wireless World about Nicads and their failure mode. The author did indeed reckon that the best way to treat Ni-Cads was to treat them rough, ie make them work, and to ensure that they were fully discharged before recharging. The same author also gave a method of reviving "dead" cells. Basically, it involved reverse blasting them with a heavy current to melt the internal short-circuit that caused the failure. His idea was there was nothing to lose as these cells were destined for the scrap heap anyway. The major problem though, is that you need access to each cell to ensure that it is fully discharged and not reverse charged as can happen in a multi-cell battery. I do recall though, seeing somewhere a suggestion that a diode across each cell would stop that problem. The same access problem also occurs when attempting to revive "dead" cells. The so-called memory effect, ie low capacity, is cured by a full discharge and recharge cycle on each individual cell. Again, access problems prevent this from being easily done. Regards, Peter G. Shaw |
| Steve Garnett | 18/03/2010 18:54:56 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Incidently, whilst I haven't looked at the idea in any great detail, just suppose, the mains plugs and sockets used for the drill were wired the opposite way round to normal, ie the socket wired to the drill. This would mean that it was impossible to connect such a drill directly to the mains, would it not? Peter G. Shaw ... and it would leave the pins connected to the battery exposed to landing on anything metal. If you haven't tried shorting out a 12v battery with low internal resistance, you should give it a go! (although by the sounds of it you already have...) Years ago I watched somebody trying to decide which car battery he needed for his car, and he announced that he was going to measure the sizes of them with a tape measure. Before anybody could stop him, he tried it on the first one (this was in a car accessory shop), straight across the terminals. About a foot of tape measure vaporised, he shot backwards and collided with the long stand of bits behind, sending the whole lot crashing to the ground. Complete chaos. Funniest thing I saw all week! KWIL's right. It's not intelligence-based - stuff just happens. I don't care if people blow themselves and electric drills to smithereens, but somebody else might. So warnings should be there for their sakes - not mine, yours or perhaps anybody else's at all on this forum - it's just a timely reminder that's required, in an appropriate place. The other thing to note is that putting a warning on tool instruction also provides a degree of protection against negligence claims - certainly in America. Ask Ryobi - they must reckon that it's well worth it, certainly in Maryland. It got them out of a deal of trouble over machine guards. Since MEW is distributed in the US, not providing some sort of warning in an article that changes the use of an existing tool... well I don't know what the actual situation would be over that, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a no-win no-fee lawyer trying to find out, that's for sure. Edited By Steve Garnett on 18/03/2010 19:27:34 |
| Peter G. Shaw | 18/03/2010 19:16:10 |
1531 forum posts 44 photos | ... and it would leave the pins connected to the battery exposed to landing on anything metal. If you haven't tried shorting out a 12v battery with low internal resistance, you should give it a go! (although by the sounds of it you already have...) Of course I have. Hasn't everyone? Especially at 'tech' during Principles classes when learning about valves with 2V heaters! But seriously though, any shorting I've done has always been accidental and resulted in, at worst, a blown fuse. I have never seen the results of any such serious shorting out, although I've heard plenty of anecdotes about it. Perhaps my training in telecomms was good enough to avoid such mishaps. As regards the car, this was a towbar that was already fitted and wired when I bought the car. It turned out that the power wiring for the connectors was routed under the car in and out of various points between the sockets on the towbar, and the fuse & relay at the front of the engine compartment. What happened was that after a few years, vibration, possible cable movement by mechanics, something like that anyway, and the cable ended up rubbing against a sharp edge. Eventually the sheath and insulation gave way and pop went the fuse. Connect up the caravan, and the caravan battery ends up being connected back down the car wiring to the sharp edge, hence to earth, and pop went the caravan fuse. Which caused no end of head scratching until I realised what had happened. To find the fault, I ended up wiring a piezo-electric sounder across the blown car fuse and moved the wiring about until the sounder operated. No problems after a good repair. Giving a friendly warning of possible problems is one thing. Going overboard and complaining that something experimental is dangerous and should not even be shown is quite another. Especially when said article gives a recommended alternative. This is a hobby, and we have to allow people in the hobby to think for themselves. Regards, Peter G. Shaw |
| Steve Garnett | 18/03/2010 19:36:54 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 18/03/2010 19:16:10: Did anybody say that it shouldn't be shown? I certainly didn't. The problem as I perceived it was that the recommended alternative wasn't really quite 'recommended' enough, and that was all. I'm all in favour of experiments - do 'em all the time. I'm also in favour of people continuing to be able to do them though, and if a timely warning or two helps that by alerting people to the possibilities, then what's the problem? I'm not suggesting for one moment that the Ed goes overboard about this - only something sensible, which I'm sure is what he'll do. Lively debate though! |
| Stub Mandrel | 18/03/2010 21:12:18 |
 4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | I've electrocuted myself enough times to be able to speak with authority on this. We can all make mistakes - I have IEC connectors on several things in my workshop and around the house. But oh no, I'm not stupid enough to get the leads muddled up am I? And its amazing how many people know machinery inside out but really don't get electricity. There really are reasons why plugs are polarised etc. prat ideas like wiring two 13A plugs to a welder are just so dangerous as to be beyond the pale. The screwdriver idea isn't that bad, but even the builder changed tack and went to a safer solution so he knows it wasn't the best way - just a stop gap. Something like this it costs nothing and it is zero effort to make a short comment on safety. I remember someone in one of the mags suggesting wiring capacitors to the mains o make a bridge to test their value - he had unshielded mains floating around, and got shirty when I worte in to point out you could do the same thing in perfect safety by using 12V ac instead of mains. Now I like big bangs as much as the next man, but not when they are someone else's fault. Even if we don't have kids, one day we all die and our wife/daughter/son/mate will come to sort through our stuff, and maybe switch on and try it out. I make a lot of electrical stuff, much using mains in it, and while I don't hit CE standards, I don't make anthing I would worry about a kid plugging in and switching on. they might break it, but it won't break them. Cheers Neil P.S. Some may know SIDE... |
| Steve Garnett | 19/03/2010 00:08:29 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by The Artful Bodger on 18/03/2010 21:12:18: P.S. Some may know SIDE... Yeah, the slightly more cautious of us that did power courses back in the day, and worked on a few rather dangerous things - and who seem to be erring on the side of caution in this thread. For everybody else, it's the mnemonic that's drilled into you when you are working on anything electrical that could severely damage you or anybody around you - more stuff than you might think, and especially anything with capacitors in it that are likely to retain a charge. Switch off - Isolate - Dump - Earth I'm still here because of that. |
| John Shepherd | 19/03/2010 08:48:13 |
| 222 forum posts 7 photos |
All
I say this from a stand point of having pushed the boundaries many times, not as a H&S control freak. The facts are: 1. The use of IEC connectors in this application is dangerous.
2.. A 3rd party could inadvertently but not unreasonably connect 240v mains - the same could happen during a senior moment with other IEC leads on the bench for example. 3. It could kill or cause serious injury. 4.. It is bad practice. 5.There are better ways of doing it that are no more difficult to achieve or are more expensive.. 6.There was no reason to show the use of these connectors in the article unless to illustrate and fully explain good and bad practice. My hope is that some day I will pass the contents of my workshop onto my grandson - I do not intend to pass on anything that is not reasonably well engineered or is unsafe when used properly. John Shepherd
Edited By John Shepherd 1 on 19/03/2010 09:01:39 Edited By John Shepherd 1 on 19/03/2010 09:03:15 |
| Circlip | 19/03/2010 12:46:41 |
| 1723 forum posts | And just to re titilate on this one, how many CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS have been printed incorrectly in the past, reversed positive and negative notations for instance???? The same Graphics persons that got mechanical dimensions incorrect have also managed this one.
Given the six combinations that SOME can achieve when wiring a 13A plug, it is not very reassuring and makes one realise why you now need a skilled sparky to fit a fuse.
Regards Ian Edited By Circlip on 19/03/2010 12:47:17 |
| Nicholas Farr | 20/03/2010 11:56:36 |
 3988 forum posts 1799 photos |
Like most people I was horrified to see mains plugs/sockets being used on battery drills and imagining the danger if it was inadvertently plugged into the mains. I like many others I have experimented using things that were not specifically designed for the use that I have put them to. In your article I believe that photo 1 would suffice to show the first trial of this experiment along with a little text explanation. However pictures are remembered better than words and some people don’t even read the words. (Most self assembly instructions are in pictures with very few words these days) To see several close up pictures of mains plugs being fitted and wired I believe is a bad idea, as some people will see the photo and think that’s a good idea and believe they have enough info to complete their own interpretation without even thinking of the potential hazards. You can argue all you like about the do’s and don’ts and so called idiots in the workshop, but however clever or intelligent you are we all make stupid mistakes, ever picked up a piece of metal shortly after you’ve just welded it, ever chopped the end off your tape measure in the guillotine, ever made a pot of tea and forgot to put the teabag in, ect, ect, we all need a little idiot proofing now and again. As it has already been mentioned, it is those who follow us, e.g. children who may not be familiar with what we modify that may be heading for a disaster. In these days of no win no fee, idiot proof safety or otherwise is something we should consider. Nick.
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| Donhe7 | 20/03/2010 14:01:34 |
| 37 forum posts | After reading this thread, I remember the practice of (many tears ago) using the standard Australian 3-pin 240 volt plugs and sockets for trailer wiring, I think because of the expense and difficulty of obtaining the proper trailer units. Since those days things have changed considerably, and various types of low voltage connectors have become available, and to my mind it is inexcusable to even consider using ANY 240v (or 230v), connector for low voltage supplies, as anyone who is/was unaware of the situation, could attempt to plug said IEC plug into the low voltage side of the supply, if the pins are on that side of the assembly, with disastrous results, conversely as was originally, stated, a similar result would/could occur. I don't know what the situation is "over there", but here in australia, we are able to purchase low voltage plugs and sockets at various Auto Accessory stores, so a much safer alternative should be able to be obtained if the time and trouble was taken to look for it. Not that I, myself, am greatly in favour of the "Nanny State" in which we are being increasingly forced to live, I would rather see some risky practices ended. Donhe7 Edited By Donhe7 on 20/03/2010 14:15:50 Edited By Donhe7 on 20/03/2010 14:18:24 |
| Gordon W | 20/03/2010 16:32:24 |
| 2011 forum posts | I've just been reading the latest MEW, I have noticed several adverts for expensive machinery, beginners should be warned that these ads. can severely affect your marriage. Then I read an article advocating that I stare out the window with my eyes crossed ! do not do this with people around! There is an article about battery drills, I'll read this when my eyes get back to normal. |
| Steve Garnett | 20/03/2010 17:16:50 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | Posted by Gordon W on 20/03/2010 16:32:24: Then I read an article advocating that I stare out the window with my eyes crossed ! do not do this with people around! There is an article about battery drills, I'll read this when my eyes get back to normal. I think that people have put what amounts to warnings about the expensive machinery syndrome re. continuing viability of marriage before, but yes you are correct - another idiotic mistake can easily be made there. I'll leave individuals to work out whether it's the marriage or the machinery....  *I can't make that supposedly stereoscopic thing work for me, even though I can manage those 'magic picture' books without difficulty. Anyway, after you've read the electric drill thing, your eyes may well be crossed again, and your mouth gaping wide open as well... * (OT) SWMBO doesn't really care about the machinery as long as it's relatively cheap, doesn't get in her way and I get all the stuff she wants done along the way. What she's most concerned about presently is where the rest of it's going to fit in the W/S (quite a bit is in storage awaiting restoration). Has she got a point? Is my plan going to work? Ask me in several months time... but yes, it was all very cheap, otherwise I wouldn't have had it. I've never had much of a problem with resisting ads for very expensive new machinery - it's the private ads for cheap S/H bargains that I'm a sucker for! |
| Stub Mandrel | 21/03/2010 21:36:59 |
4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | the pics were hard work. I think the perspective is too severe for me, I could only get part of all but one picture to work. I wonder if reducing the angle or making the vanaishinjg point much further away would help? Yes we can all do stupid things. I left my Antex soldering iron left switched on all last night. i still have aworkshop, but the element blew and farnell no longer stock CS elements. They are twice the price from other places  Neil |
| Circlip | 22/03/2010 11:16:33 |
| 1723 forum posts | Whichever plugs and sockets one uses, they won't have been designed for connecting a battery operated drill to a dedicated power supply.
Yes Nicholas, that's why I've been castigated many times for playing c**p about the more "learned" showing photos on forums of dangerous practices and excusing it by saying "I've been a machinist for XXX years"
If brains were --- some couldn't even blow their hats off.
Regards Ian. |
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All Forum Topics > Model Engineers' Workshop. > MEW 162 - Phoenix Battery Drills