You Couldn't Make It Up

Great danger in comparing statistics in criminology( and other spheres) between countries. Sweden and Norway have vastly different social structure to USA. Per capita income, social support, drugs and educational standards, almost defy comparison.

Contrary to some assertions there is good evidence that increasing sentencing reduces crime. The problem is that the payback of expensive incarceration is very poor and non linear. So 10% increase in sentence may produce but a 2-4% reduction in overall crime.

We all conflate the feckless and socially inept criminal who make up the majority with the small number of nasty and socially unacceptable bad @@@@ards.

The former should be offered every support to encourage rehabilitation. Currently they may leave prison on a Friday evening with uncertain digs and no money. The system has done its job. Are we surprised that they nick a car or gravitate to the known source of money viz drugs?

The smaller group of bad bad people should not be given such consideration as I believe that, say with paedophiles, that the leopard does not change its spots.

There is good evidence that the certainty of being caught and punished is a much better deterrent than the length of incarceration. The criminal never thinks he will be caught.

So I would advise governments to improve detection rates , be more realistic in who poses a real threat to society and to recognise that rehabilitation does not stop at the prison gate.

I imagine the "some" would include most of those that have actually been on the receiving end of the crime, or close to it, rather than considering it from a purely academic perspective.

What I mean is the loss of liberty is the punishment, we have abandoned hard labour, the crank, the birch etc. It’s not about revenge even if “make them pay” is a very human response. Restorative justice can be very effective too in bringing offenders face to face with the results of their actions. It helps the victims too as does victim statements to n court.

regards Martin

It's a good job this political thread's subject was not about Brexit and it's consequences or it would have been shut down in very short order. I can only assume that I have been incorrect in my thinking that the application of justice is a political issue and is not subject to political debate and opinion otherwise it would not have been allowed to be raised on this model engineering forum.

Not so much politics as social science

regards Martin

Chris are you really suggesting we only discuss model engineering on this forum ?

H

Chris are you really suggesting we only discuss model engineering on this forum ?

H

Errrrr............Yes, I am actually, and I was given the very firm impression that is exactly what is for. The reason being that when someone was questioning some of the post-Brexit trading difficulties, costs and charges when purchasing materials etc. from European suppliers I had the temerity to point out that was one of the 'benefits' of Brexit. We were informed in no uncertain terms by the moderator, who I assume was a supporter of course the country had taken and did not want any criticism, that this Forum was not for political debate and the thread was removed forthwith. If anybody thinks that this thread is not 'political' let us us move on to the subject of capital punishment. Let's see how long that lasts on here, the longer it lasts will again indicate the political leanings of the moderator unless dual standards are being applied.

Edited By Chris Crew on 19/11/2022 21:41:48

... then you apparently haven't read the definition of the Tea Room topic category:

"The Tea Room
This is the place for discussion of any issues that aren't in the forum mainstream. Misplaced threads will be moved here."

.... apparently created to channel the inevitable OT threads that any forum experiences so that people can read or ignore.

Brexit: when that happened there was a specific notice give (by Neil iirc) that any disscusions would not be tolerated in that instance. For the obvious reasons that feelings ran high and it would take over the entire site. That seems to have been relaxed a little more recently but not completely.

Politics in this thread. Politics is ubiquitous in life and is a background factor in almost every topic one can think of can think of. I don't think this particular thread has invoked politics significantly

(Sorry about that big space up there. Funny things happened when I cut-and-pasted from the topics screen and no amount of editing would fix it.)

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 20/11/2022 01:54:23

The problem with politics on the forum is the risk of causing offence, which isn't why I'm a member. It's a Model Engineering forum, not a Liberal Intellectual Discussion Group or a Right-wing Echo Chamber.

But politics intertwine everything; they are bound to come up. Unfortunately the ''activity through which people make, preserve and amend the general rules under which they live' is argumentative, and who should be trusted with power is controversial. See Machiavelli's 'The Prince'. Thus an issue like Global Warming, which brings many interesting technical challenges, become entangled in strong opinions about 'they want you to be afraid', the economy, population movements, panic, wishful thinking, the risks of nuclear power, and what the rest of the world are doing about it.

As strong political opinions lead to arguments, threads and posts liable to cause offence are likely to be Moderated. The Code of Conduct starts by saying 'We're a friendly community and we welcome new members and
have a laugh at the same time as having lively debates.' That means I'm personally tolerant of lively debates up to the point where they become unfriendly. As far as I know the other Moderators follow the same principles. It's a judgement call, which is why some 'political' threads run longer than others, and why one moderator might act sooner than another.

Dr Strangelove put it well: 'Gentlemen, there is no fighting in the war room.'

Dave

Dare I suggest that the threshold of unacceptability might be

when ‘political’ becomes ‘Political’ [or perhaps ‘Party Political’]

MichaelG.

This kind of 'why o why' thread always gathers heat (not light) until it is terminated by the moderators. They are easy to identify - might as well stop them early. I've got my tin hat on.

I cannot understand why forum members read posts they obviously disagree with and then demand their removal.

There are lots of subjets posted on here that I do not even look at because I have no interest in them.

If there is a specific place for 'non forum' topics then I see no problem in ANY subject being discussed.I would like to think we are all old enough, adult enough and tolerant enough to be able to discuss ANY subject without the subject becoming heated.

One might disagree with anothers point of view (Brexit for instance, or capital punishment) but the moderators should only step in when the debate becomes personal or inflamatory.

The tea room on most forum sites is for open discussion on ANY toopic, forum related or not, don't read it if it MIGHT offend or go against your views.

The current wokery in all forms of media seeks to try and negate any discussion that they don't like and demonise anyone who does not agree - dangerous times my friends, we have seen it before and look where that lead.

Throughout the 1970's I was a member of a small group of six people - at work, I should hastily add. Of these six people, one, me, was probably the most right wing member, whilst another was definitely the most left wing member. We also had one member who was vary adept at starting non-work related contentious arguments and then sitting back whilst the arguments raged. Yes, I'm using strongish language.

The really odd thing about this was that the left wing member, was probably the one person I would have gone to if I was in serious difficulty about something (non-work related)!

I wonder what that says about us.

Of course, back then I was a relatively young man along with a young man's views on things. Time moderates all those views. Today, I wouldn't get involved, simply smile, and figuratively walk away, having learned that getting involved doesn't do anyone's (read 'my' ) reputation any good, and generally, entrenched views don't change.

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

Edited to get rid of a Smiley that appeared.

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 20/11/2022 11:18:15

Generally I think they let us talk about anything and only interfere when we stop playing nicely.

It would be an interesting experiment to calculate the life expectancy all topics that have been locked or terminated by moderators and create a list in decending order.

regards Martin

I wonder how many people share Chris's definition of Model Engineering? Trying to define it well enough to permit only relevant posts would make him wish for a political thread.

I think Percival Marshall was fiendishly clever when he called the magazine 'Model Engineering'! It caters for everything!

Engineering covers making things, sweeping up science, maths and technology on the way.

'Model' is even broader. In a core sense it covers making small scale representations of real objects, but it's not limited to that. Other meanings cover design, simulations, patterns of best practice, and public display.

I believe Model Engineering to be a broad church and am happy to see everything from 2D CAD to Zirconium via Cherry Hill class masterpieces, including discussion of tooling, delivery and other issues with a some sort of technical base.

Dave

.

… and many more [ unless you are including all the others within ‘public display’ ]

MichaelG.