Help me choose a lathe to suit my hobby

Hello Nick

Had a look at the SC4 lathe and be looking forward to the review that would be most helpful and it would meet my needs. You are of course right about the collets and they are in my list of growing accessories. I use the collets already quite a bit on my dremel tool

Cheers

Andrew

Microbike

Given that my painting ability is about "no runs on a good day" level I envy your ability but fully appreciate the colossal number of hours practice needed to get to that standard. My Norton Commander is just grey, all over. Perhaps I could mange that if I really concentrated!

I've always found that adding new facilities opens up possibilities I didn't think about beforehand and what I actually end up wanting is rather different to what I originally expected and planned for. I've little doubt that the same will happen for you hence the suggestion that you get your feet wet with a temporary 75% solution first.

Clive.

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You mention wheels dictating the need for a larger lathe. However you will be needing a mill soon and they can make round things too. It is the same situation for traction engine builders. The rear wheels may be 24 in dia but everything else can be made on a 4 1/2 in lathe so nobody would buy the lathe based on the wheels.

As for a big lathe being able to make small things - well do you really want to turn a 1/8 in bolt held in an eight inch chuck with 2 HP behind it?

,Hello Clive

Your point is well made and has certainly directed my thinking towards a smaller less sophicated lathe just to get started and see how things work out

Bazyle a mill is indeed on my list and determining what mill has been much easier than the lathe. In fact I might buy a small mill and a small lathe just to test the waters a bit as has already been suggested Both machines however imperfect will advance my building to another level.

For example a big challenge I face at the moment is removing carefully the moulded bolt heads and replacing them with scale bolts, screws and cap screws. Below a plastic part where I need to remove all the moulded screw/bolt heads

And this is how it looks with real cap screws and bolts added (bottom part is painted - note parts are from two different bikes though)

At the moment I do it mostly with a 1mm end mill bit held in a pin vice but the results are less than perfect. Therefore having a small mill with a compound table would already be an improvement. The Proxxon MF 70 Milling Machine fits the bill is only £300 but there is one tiny problem. The plastic parts are moulded styrene with a very low melting point and the Proxxon mill's lowest speed is 5,000 which will literally melt the plastic in a millionth of a nano second

Therefore a WARCO WM 14 MILLING MACHINE WITH DRO is a better option since its lowest speed is 50 rpm and the low power at this speed is not an option. True the WARCO is three time the price of the Proxxon but the model kit is over £200 pounds so if I mess up a part then it's really expensive to correct

.

Here you go. **LINK** That one will reduce to a low spindle speed and is I would think a sturdier machine than the proxxon.

Nick

Microbike,

I am another satisfied and happy Warco user, I've had a WM250V for almost 3 years and a GH1330 for about 10 years, both are worked hard and have given trouble free service. Service from Warco has always been very good. I live fairly close so I often drop in if I need something and they are always most helpful. In fact I am always surprised when I read on here or anywhere else that someone has had poor service from them.

I have to agree with Nick_G regarding the Proxxon machines, overpriced and over rated in all aspects - just my opinion.

I made 3 or 4 calls during the guarantee period. Once I had trouble getting hold of anybody who knew anything, but there was a major ME show about to start so most personnel were away setting that up.

I had a bad jam-up in the first month when I inadvertently started longitudinal feed instead of crossfeed against a locked saddle. The leadscrew shearpin didn't break as it should have, but what did was one of the keyed sleeve bushes in the headstock geartrain. It's probably unreasonable to expect Warco people to have sussed that, and it took me a while to find it, but when I did they sent me a couple of replacements immediately.

When I phoned up about a stripped thread in one of the T-nuts for the vertical slide baseplate, again replacements arrived within a day or two.

When the crosslide leadscrew shearpin fell into the apron gearbox and jammed it solid - this time the main leadscrew shearpin did break - they gave me working advice on how to get the apron and leadscrew off, and I could clear the jam and fix the damage with nothing more than a few inches of 1/8" diameter brass. I had an email exchange with them about that, describing the problem and its solution, and they sent me a gift token. Not quite sure why, but I got some milling cutters out of it. The lathe was well out of guarantee by that time.

Overall I'd say their service is very good to excellent from my experience.

I don't think Michael was far off the mark with the Sherline suggestion, easily do the small stuff and will also handle the rims though may take a little longer than hogging it out on a bigger machine. You only have to look at the work of Jerry Kieffer done on these machine to see they are capable so if you want to make a working engine for your bikes it can be done on a Sherline.

Back to the original question, I have only used Axminster for woodworking machines over the last 20yrs or so, never had a problem so don't know about aftersales. They have really only upped their involvement in the engineering side of things in the last couple of years so may not be able to offer the help and advice that an importer of the same machines for many years can offer.

The 290 sounds a bit big for what you want, 200 to 250mm swing would be more than adequate and give you money to spend on a mill. As Nick says I have had a 280 size warco for about 8 years now and only had a couple of minor parts need replacement - brushes and a £5 speed pot.

Mill wise an SX2P, or SX2.7 would also be worth looking at, I have had the slightly larger X3 from the same factory for 11 years now and no problems, again there are other suppliers than Axminster who generally seem to sell the same Sieg machines for less. I've not used the Warco mills so won't offer an opinion.

You seem to be looking at machines with DROs consider buying these separately as you may get a better deal than the "package" some are fitted here in the UK and you are just paying for someone to fit them for you, it is not that hard to do.

I'm about to do a review of an SX2.7 Mill from ARC and having seen the cost of the tooling and accessories that came with it you should set aside a good proportion of your budget for all the bits you will need to get the most out of the machines.

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2017 08:39:23

Having seen the progression of this thread ... I remain convinced that you would be well-served by the little Sherline lathes and mills.

I've never owned one, but there is something pleasing about about the integrity of the design, and [it appears] the care that goes into manufacturing, that would put them high on my selection list if I was buying new.

Yes, they are small; and some details look unsophisticated, but people do great work with them.

MichaelG.

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[descends from soapbox]

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Edit: nice to see Jason's post ... we were typing concurrently.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 08:48:46

Andrew,

I am indeed about to review the SC4, although the article is going to be more an explanation of what a lathe is and how it works aimed at beginners.

I am not convinced that a mini-lathe might not suit you better, if you are keeping yourself to 1:6 models. For those familiar with these things the SC4 is a bit larger in capacity than a S7, being an inch greater in swing and between centres (although not having a gap) and pretty similar in terms of overall bulk, weight and rigidity. This might be a bit OTT for your needs.

Neil

Hello Nick

Thanks for the link and you are right it's variable speed and can get down to very low RPM - plus it's not expensive at all

Cheers

Andrew

Hello Graeme W

Very reassuring to have your feedback as I must say I do like the WARCO machines. Is the a particular individual at WARCO that you would recommend. I did not see them listed for the Midlands show? it's not urgent as I am still researching on the lathe

I do like the little mill Nick recommend as its small enough to go on my modelling workbench and is not expensive at all. Plus it will help me to mill away moulded plastic very accurately

Thanks for advice, much appreciated

Cheers

Andrew

Hello Nick B1

Thanks for you feedback on WARCO and I must say its good to hear how positive they were and support offered

Gift voucher too - impressive gesture to be sure

It is very reassuring to read, thank you. I am keen on a WARCO lathe as I thing the overall package is very good

However I need to organise the workshop and see how to reposition my two real motorbikes and do some upgrading before buying the lathe . Wife doesn't mind a little mill on the table to mill away plastic but she draws the line about a lathe in the house - fair enough I think

Cheers

Andrew

Hello JasonB

Thanks for the feedback and advice on the mill. I will look forward to you review. I do also like the two mills you recommend which are bigger and would need to go into the workshop

It still might be an idea to start will the smaller version for milling the plastic parts on my modelling room and the with some experience behind me look at a bigger mill for the engineering workshop

When it comes to airbrushing I do use different ones for different applications so I have one particular airbrush that I use just for chrome painting as its the only one that give me the mirror finish

Point taken on the DRO I thought it was the other way round - learn something new every day

Cheers

Andrew

That little mill has a weak spot of design in the way the vertical column is attached. Also a number of smaller machines lathes and mills are aluminium is places they shouldn't be.

Have you looked at Cowells lathes and BCA mills both of which are highly prized by clockmakers?

You might also look at pantograph engravers (Taylor Hobson, Alexander, Deckel) which can be used a milling machines (although the OEM fixture for that will be unobtainable a Potts spindle can be rigged up). If you have the room a die sinker (Alexander, Gorton, Deckel) is even better. These are all being replaced by CNC engravers so there are masses around where ten years ago I could only find 3 mentions of an Alexander 3A on the entire web (one being the ME index which once had an article with no detail just someone saying he had used one)

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Admirable suggestions, Bazyle ... I have both a BCA and a Taylor Hobson

I didn't mention either, because I thought Andrew was looking to buy new.

When I worked at Kodak, the 'Development Workshop' used to cut all the prototype levers for camera mechanisms using simple hardboard patterns and a 10:1 reduction on the pantograph.

Engraving machines do crop-up quite cheaply, but good BCAs usually fetch a very good price.

... and a less-than-good one could become a major restoration project.

MichaelG.

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P.S. ... I've just checked the Tenga Engineering Machine Tools site

 They're listing a couple of nice BCAs

http://www.tengamachinetools.com/TMT0513/Turret_Milling_Machines_Range.html

'though I suspect the price might exceed Andrew's indicated budget. 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 14:54:09

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 14:56:41

Hi Andrew,

I have read your thread in detail. I would go along with the general comments on here which suggest that you consider a small mill and a small lathe. However, in your particular case, I would strongly suggest that you visit the supplier of the machine you intend to buy, to go through the various aspects of the machine, before you start to use it. This will help you immensely, especially as you are coming into this from a non-engineering background.

Most of the manuals, especially of Chinese origin which come with the machines are too basic for a total beginner. This is the way it is. If you are considering to buy the SX1L from ARC, I would strongly suggest that you come and see us. The time you spend with us going through various features and limitations of a machine (say about 30 mins.), will definitely save you time and possible future hassle.

In your particular case, if a seller is unable to show you/go through the features of the machine, you may want to walk away. You will save yourself and the seller future hassle. I am talking from experience.

Also, your visit works both ways. You mentioned earlier: 'Then I thought SIEG till I read the mini lathe book by Fenner and that really put me off - so many quality issues - but to be fair it only costs about £750'. This is a concern for ARC, especially as the idea of such books and similar modern guides is to be 'helpful'. After discussions, either or both - seller and buyer can decide if the machines we sell are the right suit for the buyer, or if the buyer would be better served by a Proxxon or Shierline. It is well known for us to turn away business and direct certain buyers elsewhere, based on a buyers knowledge, experience and expectations.

The extra price you may pay for a Sheirline or Proxxon may mean that you may not have to do any fettling. Regardless of what anyone says, if you buy ANY Chinese machine, you will need to consider fettling, based on your knowledge. To be honest, about 70% of new hobby buyers are from non-engineering backgrounds now a days. Most get on with the new Chinese machines without much bother, regardless of knowing or not knowing what to look out for. Many don't bother doing any fettling. Either they don't know, or the machine meets their needs as it comes even if it may need fettling. A small percentage get carried away with their expectation of precision - be it based on price or otherwise, especially after reading stuff in some old books which may be less relevant to modern machines, or watching You Tube - 50% of which is open to question due to the lack of knowledge by the presenter.

If you have any doubts, you have the budget, and you don't have the time to think about mods or fettling, and if you want a great manual, consider the Sherline and Proxxon.

Hope above information is of help.

Ketan at ARC.

Picking up on Ketan's point about fettling, my experience is that all my Far Eastern kit worked out of the box and it all benefited from some fettling. As 'fettling' might sound difficult, you may find it useful if I list what I actually did to a Mini-lathe and it's bigger replacement.

Mini-lathe:

• Checked the lathe using advice on from various Mini-lathe websites. Didn't find anything alarming, actually much better than expected.
• Cleaned and lubricated.
• Adjusted the gibs, later removing and polishing them to improve smoothness (I'm not sure it was worth the effort!)
• Added a guard to stop swarf getting into the electrics via the leadscrew.
• Increased the depth of the holes used to register the High/Low gear-change lever.
• Added a lock to the cross-slide.
• Tightened the tailstock cam-lock adjuster.
• Added a washer to the top slide leadscrew assembly to remove some slack.
• Slightly adjusted the height of the right hand leadscrew bearing to improve leadscrew/half-nut alignment.
• Smoothed the block inside the tailstock to make it easier to realign the tailstock after cutting a taper.

WM280:

• Checked specifications against the supplied calibration certificate (all OK)
• Cleaned up and lubricated. Found nothing out of order during first inspection.
• Polished the block inside one of the handles to stop it binding when setting zero
• Took 1mm off the end of the bolts used to bolt the rear tool-post to the table.
• Had some intermittent cut-outs. Tightened the chuck guard safety switch fixing bolts & the guard spindle bolt. Likely these had come loose in transit .
• About six months later got an intermittent starting problem and traced it to a loose terminal screw on the contactor. (All the other electrical connections were tight.)
• Fitting Chucks and compounding gear wheels I found initially very tight. I eased the gears, but the chucks fitted properly on the register after being dismounted a few times.
• Put roofing felt under the lathe stand to reduce vibration noticable at about 600rpm.
• Replaced the Motor/VFD cable with a better shielded type to improve EMC. (This makes no difference to the operation of the lathe.)

Things I didn't like about the mini-lathe:

• Gear changing for threading can be awkward. The banjo has two radius arms and access to one of the fixing bolts is limited.
• The anti-backlash mechanism on the cross-slide is fiddly and tends to come loose.
• Did 90% of what I wanted but I realised it was too small.
• Small fingers very helpful when changing chucks - there's not much space between the flange and the headstock to get at the nuts.
• The tailstock tended to slip whilst doing heavy drilling. (Mine had a camlock, don't know if the bolt-down types also slip.)

Things I don't like about the WM280:

• Noisy cooling fan on the VFD
• Still best to have small fingers when changing chucks.
• Limited range of the gearbox before you have to change gears on the banjo. Although miles better than a mini-lathe, gear changes are still tiresome and messy.
• Swapping belts to move between the High and Low speed ranges
• Wish it had a clutch

That's my experience. Note that I didn't have any problems with the fundamental accuracy of either lathe and that the breakdowns were trivial. Bottom line is the lathes are made down to a price. The components are of reasonable quality for hobby use, but the lathes are put together in a hurry. You get a lot of metal for your money but very likely there will tidying up to do. Some people are unlucky, or as Ketan mentioned, a few have unrealistic expectations. Most seem to get on with them without ructions.

Dave

About ten years ago I bought a Warco lathe, the BV20 which has a geared headstock, I chose this model because I was wary of an electronic speed control having heard some horror stories about the fragility of speed control boards, fortunately these components appear to be much more robust nowadays. The BV20 has six speeds through the integral geared headstock, the only drawback was the noise from the gears, I mentioned this on a visit to Warco when the twelve month warranty was nearly expired and without question they arranged to exchange the lathe at no cost. Unfortunately the noise level on the exchange machine was only marginally better, ear defenders do help to attenuate it. I checked the gears in the headstock and it would appear the noise comes from excess backlash between the meshing gears, it would appear that if the shaft centre distances are correct then there are problems with PCD of the gears as produced. The lathe is a Chinese machine built to a budget and consequently you don't get hardened ground gears within that budget so I live with it. In the ten years that I have owned it I have only replaced a faulty NVR switch which failed after about seven years, during this time the lathe has done everything asked of it, albeit a bit noisily. I cannot fault Warco for their service and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them, you have to remember though that Chinese machines are built to budget and are not Myfords or Rolls Royces but they enable a lot of us to pursue our chosen hobbies for a very modest outlay.

Dave