A request

Clive, are you saying that Apple systems do not have a means of learning new words that you add to its dictionary?

Ian P

Any word that is not in Apple's dictionary cannot possibly be valid

Neil

(Always amused me that Microsoft's built in dictionary didn't contain 'Powerpoint'.

You can add words to both Mac OS and IOS dictionaries.

.

In the original 'spirit' of this thread, I should mention that he evidently cannot.

... You can, and I can, but Clive can not.

MichaelG.

sdnuos lkie bhslluit to me

On old English linguistics professor once told me "You should never correct the way someone speaks, unless you are married to them -- and want a divorce!"

Forums, although in written format, are more like speech than a formal written document. It is basically a "chat room" as they used to be called, with people chatting back and forth asking and answering questions and making comments as they go, all off the cuff.

So I reckon the good professor's words apply.

The problem is that if the language, written or spoken, is (almost) unintelligible to the reader or listener, then the reader or listener is simply going to switch off and ignore the writer or speaker. Which may well be a disadvantage to either person, or even to both people. Furthermore, it can lead to negative feelings in either direction.

Posts such as that above by Ady1 do not, in my opinion, add anything, rather they, by making fun of the problem, they trivialise what is a serious problem to some people.

I fully agree with Bodger Brian about the unintelligibility of posts written as he describes. Unfortunately, this isn't a problem just on this forum as it happens elsewhere as well. And I don't think misplaced or missing commas is the reason either: it is a specific lack of understanding of even the most basic rules of grammar, something which has been getting worse since certain people decided that ideas communication was more important than knowing the basic rules of grammar with which to communicate those ideas. It seems to me that the quote by Hopper immediately above is an example of this, in my view, misplaced thinking - and I don't care just how much his professor knows - intelligibility has to be important.

I am well aware that some people appear to use a different form of English to me - I'm thinking of those people who use words such as "yous", or as a 13 year old boy said to me when describing toothache: "It's painin' us!". But at least it was readily decipherable and hence easily understandable. But there does appear to be a group of people to whom the basics of grammar, and sentence construction is an alien concept.

I have no experience of tablets, smart-phones, or other electronic devices other than my computer, yet I cannot see that it is not possible to correct something after insertion into the forum: there is, after all, an edit function available within the forum. Therefore, I don't necessarily agree that the problem is predictive software - unless the problem is actually that the writer cannot see the layout after insertion.

What the answer is, I really do not know, other than a return to old-fashioned methods of teaching grammar, but that won't go down too well.

I'll leave you with a saying I've heard a few times: "If you know how to spell, then you are over the age of 50 (and hence subjected to the old-fashioned way of being taught English)". And yes, I know I've introduced a new factor, but it's all part of the same problem.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

(who, by the way, failed English Language, English Literature and French at GCE 'O' level, and dropped Latin after two years).

Not wanting to stretch this thread any further than necessary, but it may be appropriate to ask all who post (posters advertise things/events, in my book) to put themselves in the place of those who are about to read the contribution.

YOU know what you are talking about, but will your meaning be clear to the READER?

(This is a certain way of antagonising old hands, who know; by making it plain to the newcomer, or those unfamiliar with the subject. That means me on computers or electronics)

EXAMPLE: To some, a PET is an old make of computer, whilst to many more it will be their cat or dog.

Howard

I thought it was Polyethylene terephthalate?

nah, mate its a sort of plastic me misses tells me to put in the green bin.

(Polyethylene terephthalate)

Frank

Sorry boys am from yorkshu an av no idea wat yu goin on about, the ony pet r no is me geordy mates missus

Peter,

"It's painin' us!".

The lad was probably speaking in his local dialect. In the North East people often use "us" instead of "me, however he did at least make himself clear to you. I do not think there is anything wrong with local dialect being used in everyday speech but standard English should be used when writing.

I do not like to the modern persistent use of "like" by youngsters throughout their conversations.

Since local accents and/or dialect can change within 25 miles (yes they do) we all have to learn to understand our neighbours, but the written word should be correct! I knowlingly say "should", because I know saying "shall" will only cause confusion. Just read public statements and print from central government to see they too have the same problem.

Edited By KWIL on 17/12/2015 20:04:11

Lambton,

Sorry, this wasn't local dialect : it was nothing more than poor speech because he didn't know any better. From what I could see of him, he had probably never been exposed for any length of time to any adults speaking even a modicum of good English. He was always understandable, albeit with poor grammar and incorrect usage of words, but what was more troubling was his lack of understanding of the world around him, and his total lack of interest in anything other than watching football on the television.

As a West Riding man, I was exposed to a lot of Yorkshire dialect (and got told off for using it), and when I moved to West Cumbria where I took up part-time taxi driving for a few years, I was exposed to a lot more of what at times seemed like a different language. In general though, most people used a recognisable form of speech and it was really only the local pronunciations which tripped me up, for example, this village, Torpenhow, is pronounced "Trepenna". This was probably the worst example I came across.

I was born & bred in the Halifax/Huddersfield area, and worked in both Bradford (Bratfud?) and Leeds, and yes, there are different dialects, and word meanings. For example, I used to have arguments with some of my Leeds - born colleagues over what I knew as a teacake: they called it a breadcake!

Out of interest, I have looked up both "shall" and "should" in my ancient Oxford MiniDictionary, and quite frankly, I can't see much, if any, difference between them.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

.

"Curiouser and Curiouser" [said Alice]

In contractual documents, 'shall' is legally accepted as meaning that some specified behaviour is mandatory [i.e. its interpretation is like the Biblical "thou shalt"] ... it is one of the most explicit and unambiguous words in the contractual vocabulary.

I suppose this goes to demonstrate the importance of context.

MichaelG.

There lies the root of your problem perhaps?

There is no "correct" way to speak. Language is a living, constantly evolving thing, evolving differently in different groups of users around the world, or as pointed out above from one villlage to another just 25 miles away. Nothing wrong with that. It's natural.

The rules for formal writing are stanardized of course. But forums are more of a conversation than formal writing. Like a conversation at the pub, you have to take what you get.

Did you realise that this does mean that it is not possible to do, rather an option chosen from an active choice? "Can not", can't or cannot" are all choices. You can not do something or you can choose to do something. However, choosing not to do something is actually a choice to do something, in much the same way that choosing to do nothing is a choice to do something which is nothing, get it? which by the way can be a question meaning did you understand? or "get it" as in get it now. it's freedom of speech or even type.Thats wot I fink anyow. 

Edited By Bodgit Fixit and Run on 18/12/2015 09:11:00

Peter Shaw Coming from that area did you never hear Slaithwaite pronounced as Slowit or Barnoldswick pronounced as Barlic ? When I was young in Lancashire you could get difference in dialects on opposite sides of the road

Roy

.

My comment to Vic was actually referencing the use of 'can' in the sense of 'able to'

i.e. Clive clearly does not currently have the requisite knowledge, and therefore cannot add words to his Apple dictionary. ... and therefore, when Vic wrote 'You can' it was not strictly true.

Note: I meant no offence to Vic, or to Clive ... it was merely a facetious remark upon the original post.

MichaelG.

Roy,

Not Barlic for Barnoldswick - because this was, so to speak, out of my immediate area (seeing as 'ow it were t'other side o't t'hill from 'alifax), but Slowit, yes, although Slathwaite, ie with the "i" missing, was most often used.

But just for the fun of it, who, what, or where is Shat? I'll leave you to ponder over that one. (Just a word to the moderators - it is genuine, I'm not being rude!)

Hopper,

There is a difference between dialect, and sloppy speech. As far as I am concerned, using "us", which is a plural word, instead of "me", the singular word, is sloppy speech. On the other hand, "laik" as in laikin' about is dialect for "playing about". The former is indicative, in my view, of poor education, whilst the latter is local language, somewhat akin, I suppose, to the difference between English and Gaelic. I have no objection to dialect - as long as I can understand it, but I do dislike sloppy speech. Language may be a "living" thing, but the rules of grammar are there for a particular purpose - to aid intelligibility, and when I hear the way some people speak, I despair, I really do.

The trouble with forums is that they are the written word, and as such are missing those visual clues that go with speech. It therefore behoves us when writing on forums to be particularly careful how we write so that we can get our message across without causing all those problems that can ensue, everything from giving the wrong idea to causing offence. Which brings us straight back to Bodger Brian's original point: that of the unintelligibilty of some of the posts.

Tootle-Pip,

Peter G. Shaw