Fred Townroe | 31/05/2010 20:57:28 |
2 forum posts | I was very excited to see the filing machine project by Harold Hall that began in MEW issue 161. It was a good project that I thought was within my capabilities. My excitement turned to frustration when I started to read the articles and reached the description of the Oscillating Assembly and File Carrier. I am confused about how to construct these assemblies that have no dimensions listed. I feel that the author has given the readers ( at least the beginners ) too much credit. I am by no means an expert but do enjoy working in my shop every day and have created a large volume of projects with good result. I have subscribed to Home Shop Machinist and The Machinist Workshop for many years and am used to projects that have complete materiels lists and dimensioned drawings for each project. Since Mr. Hall reasoned after the fact that the project would benefit from work hold-downs ( issue 164 ) I hope that he can see fit to help the less skilled members and add dimensioned drawings for all parts of his excellent project. I am holding off buying the materiels for this project until I feel that I have enough information to finish it. |
Bogstandard | 01/06/2010 01:09:27 |
263 forum posts | Fred, You are not alone in your frustration, but it seems an acceptable thing nowadays for everyone to be expected to have the same amount of knowledge about all subjects, and the same or better quality of machinery and resources as the originator of the articles. For large and complicated articles, I would suspect that the initial build of such items would only be a handful, purely because not all people can understand how a part was made or where to obtain such and such a type of material, or have a kiln in the back of the shop so that you could heat treat it to a certain temperature. These people tend to forget that most of the readers are people with very limited funds and workshop faciltiies, who have no way of replicating what is being shown in the article, so really, is it worth showing the article in the first place? I suppose you could say people will learn a few tips that could be used elsewhere, but when the tips aren't even shown, or the reader stumbles through the first part of the article before realising there is something he won't be able to achieve, so then quickly stops reading the article to go to read something he can understand more fully. Usually so much useful information is missing from these articles, that for some, they are unattainable goals, purely because of the reasons stated in my original paragraph. Information must be shown, and techniques must be described in full, otherwise all you will end up with is a book of plans that only a few people can understand and eventually produce the articles described. I would love to be able to submit articles to magazines, but because I don't 'do' cad or have the facilities to produce technical drawings, I tend to stick with my little fag packet sketches for plans and techniques, and photos for showing 'how I did it' for posting onto web sites. Then if people don't understand something, in almost real time, they can query what has been done and get an answer almost as quickly. Whereas with a magazine article, if the info isn't there, it can be months before the question is asked and answered, by which time, the original enthuiasm for the build has waned, and the person is now looking at other things that he can properly understand and produced. So for all those highly technical people who write these build articles, please remember, most of the people you are aiming it at don't have all your expertise and most probably facilities either, so take a little time to describe things in more detail and in laymans terms. Read through your article and imagine yourself as a 'newbie' reading it for the first time. If you can do that, you might realise just how little information you have actually given to build what is most probably a very complicated item. We can only hope Bogs Edited By Bogstandard on 01/06/2010 01:11:24 |
modeng2000 | 01/06/2010 07:22:39 |
340 forum posts 1 photos | Bogs, I continue to be amazed at the amount of articles some authors produce and wonder if they have time to eat and sleep. The thought of having a filing machine is quite attractive and so I have been reading about Harold Halls design. Much like Fred I became less interested on trying to read through the detailed drive mechanism and thought 'Perhaps another time'. There is a difference between padding out an article to earn more money from page area and providing enough detail about methods of construction and machining techniques together with other helpful notes. I'm sure the Editor can tell the difference! This might not be the place to ask this question but is there an alternative filing machine design available that is sensibly easy to make and produces reliable results? What do you think of filing machines Bogs? Are they a worthwhile investment of time in making one? |
Circlip | 01/06/2010 09:52:03 |
1723 forum posts | A system used in other branches of "Constructional" hobbies has been the "Star" grading of plans. This gives the prospective constructor some guide to the complexity and skills required to complete the project but relies on the student being honest with himself. I have found Harolds articals to be most informative and easy to understand But, having had a couple of years Injineering experience, I would not be able to comment from a newbies point of view but how "low" do you aim the level of understanding? I use the term "Low", NOT to insult the beginner but there has to be some realistic bottom line.
To give an example, at what point would one be expected to make a decent "Fist" of a Quorn?? (providing you wanted to learn mass production techniques for ball ended handles) or start producing an injector (Yes I've seen the burner series John) but how many don't want the hassle and go out and buy one?
In "Assisting" a couple of guys, whose day jobs are NOT metal wrangling, when I drop a term they don't understand, I usually end up giving them a b********g for themselves appologising for not understanding what I've said and in this respect, "Skype" is a wonderfull instantaneous tool. When in the past has the layman been able to talk live to the States and hold a C-O-Boggy sketch in front of a webcam to show "Another " solution? Having said that, Both realise the retort if they ask me how to turn a light switch or water tap on.
We live in an age when knowledge aquisition has NEVER been easier, we don't even have to make an effort to go to the library (wot's one of those) a few clicks on a keyboard and you have an encyclopedia at your fingertips but you have to hit the buttons.
Technical people are usually the worst to explain things cos as "Inventors" of the object putting things in laymens terms doesn't come naturally as they have a glazed view of their "Baby" This applies to both "Designers" and Metal wranglers and this is why errors creep into designs. Harold did a design years ago for a piece of workshop equipment but due to the constraints of being Editor of MEW at the time, had to pass the manufacture of the said lump to someone else to make. Can't remember there being any faults in the drawing or lack of description on how to make it but again, hardly a "Begginers" project but no erratas a few months later.
"There's a hole in my bucket dear ---- "
Regards Ian. Edited By Circlip on 01/06/2010 09:52:53 |
Bogstandard | 01/06/2010 10:25:04 |
263 forum posts | John, I was lucky and was given an old but very little used die filer a couple of years ago. I am now losing the ability to hand file things, so it is a real bonus as they are very versatile (at least mine is). I have it fitted with a hacksaw blade at the moment, and to cut up say 20 or 30 1/4" rods takes no time. With the right type and sized files (I can use almost any normal file in mine, but upside down) you can easily do very intricate work with them, and they remove metal very fast. Only you can make the decision if you will ever use one. In my situation, it has been a godsend, If you only do a bit of filing or metal shaping every now and again, then in my opinion, I would spend my time, money and effort making smaller tooling for your machines, where you will get more use out of them. That is what I have been doing over the last couple of years, I now have interchangeable chucks and fixtures that go between my lathe and mill, that saves hours of setup time, culminating in the most recent, a swing up threading tool holder that is an absolute joy to use, and brings external threading to the people who have been scared to death by the very thought of it. I would have given you pictures and links, but because this website is so awkward to use when trying to insert things, I won't bother. Bogs |
modeng2000 | 01/06/2010 11:22:29 |
340 forum posts 1 photos | Thanks bogs, I really value your oppinion. John |
Ian S C | 01/06/2010 12:55:20 |
![]() 7468 forum posts 230 photos | I,v just come across part 1 of 'A Bench Filing Machine' by Tarentford in vol 114, no 2876 of ME 5th July 1956. No castings, its made up of heavy steel plate welded, and bolted, could be interesting, it seems quite simple. Ian S C Seem to remember I thought of building this at one time. |
Circlip | 01/06/2010 14:04:38 |
1723 forum posts | MEW Issue 4 , April/May 1991 "A lightweight filing machine" by Stan Bray, Pullout plan.
Regards Ian. |
modeng2000 | 01/06/2010 16:26:11 |
340 forum posts 1 photos | Thanks fellas for the references, they are both a bit early for me and the ME/MEW archives don't go back that far. John |
David Hanlon | 01/06/2010 17:25:37 |
40 forum posts | Hi Folks, Went to the MEW digital archive and there is MEW 4 - with the article - but NO plan ![]() Dave |
russell | 02/06/2010 02:29:07 |
142 forum posts | but NO plan
![]() Dave
I asked the same question a couple of months ago, with no response. Of course, at the new improved resolution the plans probably couldn't be read anyway...
russell |
Ian S C | 02/06/2010 11:35:15 |
![]() 7468 forum posts 230 photos | I find the old issues of ME at second hand Book Shops, I'm not a club member(too far away), but I know that the clubs I know of have copies that go back at least that far, I suppose the same happens in the UK. Ian S C |
Jeff Dayman | 02/06/2010 13:37:47 |
2356 forum posts 47 photos | As mentioned above the oscillating assy is by no means clear, and I can see it being a real pain to maintain due to dirt entry.
A far simpler and more traditional filing machine design (with a scotch yoke drive fully enclosed) can be found at
Maybe a look at this unit wil give some ideas for a homebuilt fabricated version if somebody didn;t want to buy the casting kit. A lot simpler and more practical than the MEW version.
JD Edited By Jeff Dayman on 02/06/2010 13:38:39 |
Dunc | 02/06/2010 13:47:09 |
139 forum posts | There are some simpler plans in old Popular Mechanics (PM) magazines. Visit http://books.google.com/books?id=RdMDAAAAMBAJ and navigate to the required issue. 1. Mechanics of Machine Filing, PM, July 1943 - information, not construction article 2. File It Faster, PM, Oct 1947 - construction article, uses motor 3. Filing Machine Fits Your Lathe, PM, March 1957 - construction article, uses lathe for power 4. Die Filing Machine, article in Useful Workshop Tools by Stan Bray, #31 in the Workshop Practice Series |
Dunc | 02/06/2010 13:47:25 |
139 forum posts | There are some simpler plans in old Popular Mechanics (PM) magazines. Visit http://books.google.com/books?id=RdMDAAAAMBAJ and navigate to the required issue. 1. Mechanics of Machine Filing, PM, July 1943 - information, not construction article 2. File It Faster, PM, Oct 1947 - construction article, uses motor 3. Filing Machine Fits Your Lathe, PM, March 1957 - construction article, uses lathe for power 4. Die Filing Machine, article in Useful Workshop Tools by Stan Bray, #31 in the Workshop Practice Series |
KWIL | 02/06/2010 16:35:47 |
3681 forum posts 70 photos | Instead of ranting on, would it not be a better idea to state which individual items you find are not dimensioned, that way there may well be a specific reply giving proper assistance. It all looks reasonably clear to me. |
modeng2000 | 02/06/2010 19:22:18 |
340 forum posts 1 photos | Thank you Jeff and Dunc, I will look at these references. John |
Harold Hall 1 | 12/12/2010 20:08:05 |
418 forum posts 4 photos | I have just by chance come across Fred Townroe's original comments regarding my article on the filing machine. The situation is that all the drawings were provided and have been left out in error by the publishers. I to was also unhappy with the publication of the series as I had asked for each sub assembly drawing to be published in the issue that the assembly was described, if this had been done it would have been more obvious that part drawings were missing. Unfortunately, the sub assembly drawings were published in the first issue separate from them being described. It is a pity that Fred had not contacted the editor at the time, rather than commented about it in the forum, as the omission could have been corrected much earlier. I will now contact the editor who will decide how the error is best dealt with. |
Harold Hall 1 | 28/09/2012 20:53:05 |
418 forum posts 4 photos | I was not at all happy that at the beginning of this thread ( May 2010) that I was being accused of providing an article with much less information to make the item than was required as I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. As I explained it was not of my doing the magazine had not followed my requests as to how the the data should be presented. That's enough of my rantings. However, Fred and Bogs, if you are still visiting this forum perhaps you would like to visit my website which now has the filing machine added. It does, as I originally requested, present each sub assembly separately, giving text, pictures and drawings for each one on the same page or group of pages. I would appreciate your comments on the approach. It does though run to 26 web pages so just a quick flit through will give an idea. Incidentally, the website now runs to over 500 pages. If you still wish to make a filing machine Fred then do study it in detail. However, I cannot guarantee there are no mistakes but as I draw designs first and them make the item to them they are thankfully fairly rare. The pages can be found here Since making it I have used it for a few minor tasks but recently on a major one of making a Skeleton Clock to John Parslow's design in the Model Engineer magazine. For this I found it worked very well and was almost indispensable for me. The thought of finishing the frames and crossing out all of the wheels without it a non starter, some obviously have much more patience than I have. If you wish to have a look at it, it can be seen here Harold |
Stub Mandrel | 28/09/2012 21:14:54 |
![]() 4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | I have never built one of Harold's projects, but i have learnt truckloads from his articles. I think the filer is the only example that 'loses' me and now I know that it was not presented as intended, I think it is fair to point out Harold is one of the best MEW authors at presenting projects for the beginner, and like Bogs, has probably enabled many new starters to take up the hobby. As a much less experienced author who has tried to tackle the task of writing up such things, I appreciate it is not an easy task to explain something when you have no way of getting feedback until after it is published. Some may find it painful, but constructive feedback given on this forum could help authors get better. It's good to that Harold does his best to offer 'customer support' here, as well as through hi own website. Neil |
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