Where to start?

Hello folks.

I hardly know where to start with this list of questions ..let alone with the hobby so lets try and dive in...

I retired 3yrs ago, bought this hobby farm near Llanfyllin and spend my time 'pratting' about - plenty to do just keeping the place half tidy.

I have no background in metalwork or engineering apart from my old day job did include orthopaedics and as a generally cautious guy, like most of you I've always done the house diy.

I commissioned a hobby shed here that would have been way too much for a solo build. Insulated concrete base, timber framework with UPVC cladding, 4" celcon insulation and ply lined with a lightweight ally faux tile roof, double glazed windows and dual doubleglazed upvc doors. I have some woodland so a woodburner was installed too. It's about 22 x 12 feet and already way too small.

I made up a length of kitchen style units and cupboards and worktop out of mdf 800mm deep the length of one wall. Woodworking stuff could be shoved aside when not in use to gain some space.

So now the questions start:

If I gave myself a budget of , say, £6K how would you kit out for metal-cutting playtime (with no specific project in mind). I've been reading and watching vids on the web for some 3 years so this isn't just a whim. The aim is to teach myself techniques, be able to fix stuff, make some of the simple parts for my r/c helis etc - certainly make some of the ancilliary tooling. I'm thinking mostly metric.

I have a tomek grinder and a bench belt sander. So we look at this as 'machines' - lathe, mill, power saw, bandsaw...?

'Measuring stuff' - micrometers, callipers, surface plate (or just a ceramic floor tile?) guages...?

'fundamental tooling' -..?? a basic kit with other sizes bought as needed.

'others' - perhaps should be under tooling ..Heavier duty soldering than my current lowly stuff.....(I actually have a small arc welder boxed and unused as yet to play/learn with 'cos stuff breaks on a farm)...?

Pros and cons of 'new' metal compared to scrap corroded stuff (I drink with a local scrappy).

I'm thinking new rather than used.. mostly cos I haven't any experience in assessing such machines. I don't make decisions fast, I like value for money and I usually warn suppliers than I'm a tough guy to deal with - do they want to?. And can i get a deal on multiple purchase?

Anyone here local to me?

Sorry that's a long post - and likely the first of many. How would you spend that budget to best efficiency? Oh and it may ahve to include thinsg like engine crane or hire to muscle stuff into my shed.

I do have a tractor with loader bucket to help move stuff (best take bucket off and straps on the arms/) but there's still a step to get over etc.

Opinions appreciated,

pgk

I also came into this hobby to learn how to use the tools, so you are not alone in that respect.

Where to start? Well, after starting with a Unimat 1, then a Hobbymat 65, after two years in the hobby I bought a Warco 220 (no longer available), so I can justifiably state that you should get the biggest lathe you can. A large lathe will do the small stuff, but a small lathe will never do the large stuff, and even now I sometimes wish I'd gone for a higher centre height.

I actually went for a long time without a milling machine, but here again, the bigger the better. Depending on what you end up doing, it is possible that a vertical slide on the lathe may be satisfactory. In fact, I'll go further and suggest that perhaps you should go down that route (lathe + vertical slide) before even thinking about a milling machine. This will give you time to get used to the lathe, and to be able to assess what it is that you need in the shape of milling machines.

Again like you, I eventually bought my 220 new. This was following a problem or two with the Hobbymat which I did indeed buy secondhand. My reasoning, just like you, was that by the time I was ready to buy a bigger lathe, I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough - if you get my drift.

I don't have any sort of powered saw, although I would like one. Depending on your tooling, you may need a tool grinder of some description, but if you only use Tungsten Carbide replaceable tip tools, you might not need one.

Obviously, at least a 25mm micrometer, and possibly a 50mm one as well. A measuring caliper of some sort will also be useful, but on a personal basis I would avoid digital - you only need to look at the spec to see that the last digit is usually plus or minus 1 so is it 20.01mm or 19.99mm? And that's in addition to the rated accuracy and tolerance. Also, my experience is that the batteries don't last, and never work when I want it. But, other people will argue different. I have a Starrett dial caliper with a resolution of 0.01mm and a stated accuracy of 0.01mm although to be fair, I have no idea if it still meets those limits or not.

Initially I tried to use scrap metal, but as I eventually realised, there is steel, and there is steel. Steel to EN1A or 23M02 (something like that anyway) is a known quantity. Steel from "Jones the Scrap" is totally unknown. What if it happens to be very tough? After struggling for years with scrap, I eventually bought known steel, and suddenly turning became a lot easier. I do use some almost pure aluminium scrap: it tears as it turns, but I eventually discovered that a concoction of mucky paraffin, dregs of oil from empty cans and I could turn a good surface. I suspect it was the paraffin that did the trick.

Can't comment on much else, and you will have noticed that I haven't made any recommendations as to which model to get: that's because I don't consider myself sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to do that.

In any case, it won't be long before "er in doors" starts muttering words like "it's approaching bedtime etc"

Good luck with your quest.

Peter G. Shaw

p.s If nothing else, this should get the pundits going!

PGK,

Which Llanfyllin is yours? I'm close to the Powys variety, albeit a raw hand.

Eug

Edited By Eugene Molloy on 14/11/2014 21:43:48

Powys.. about 2miles oustide llanfyllin - cwm nant y meichiaid

regards pgk

Just a few random thoughts...

I don't agree with the lathe plus vertical slide approach. Nowadays and with your budget you could buy both a lathe and a reasonable small mill. There has been quite a lot of discussion on this forum about the relative merits of machines from for example Warco, that should give a reasonable view of the ones people find work well. A vertical slide is fiddly to set up, too small for probably the first real job you want to do, not very rigid, and lathe chucks aren't designed to take milling cutters so the cutter will probably move on you and ruin the work.

Buy a mill which takes R8 collets. These are quite cheap, grip like b*******ry, and since they fit right into the spindle give you effectively an extra inch or two of working height. I would avoid ER collets on the mill as you have to buy the ER chuck as well as the collets, it probably costs more than R8, and robs working height and rigidity.

A decent digital vernier is very useful even if not up to micrometer accuracy. I have one branded Trojan from an ME exhibition, actually made by Mitutoyo, it works very well and always agrees with my Mitutoyo analogue 25 mm micrometer. I also have a few of the Aldi ones, they are useful but I wouldn't rely on them. I bought an expensive Mitutoyo digital micrometer a few years back, I never use it, it is a relative reading one rather than absolute, the zero drifts, so every time you want to make an accurate measurement you have to wind it all the way closed, zero it, then wind it all the way back to measure. So I got a Mitutoyo analogue one off eBay. Over the years I've also acquired, surplus and from a sale, a M&W 50 mm mike and a "Linear" 75 mm one. The 50 mm gets some use, but most of the time for over 25 mm I use the vernier.

A piece of 6 mm float glass on a cork tile on a pice of plywood with a nice surround make a surface plate. 9 by 12 inch is a good size. Thicker float glass is better but hard to get and expensive. A height gauge is useful, mine is "analogue" but with a dial and counter readout. That was surplus from an ME show too and works very well.

A selection of engineer's squares of different sizes is nice, but if you buy only one it needs to be about 4" on its blade.

Then of course a clamping kit for the mill, but you could make that provided you buy a milling vice and the wherewithal to bolt it down. Lots of the time though if you get a clamping kit and an angle plate or two you don't need a vice very often in my experience. Look at Harold Hall's books and website. Actually some of the most useful tools I have are the ground all over angle plate and a selection of toolmaker's clamps that I have acquired over the years from a trader in our local Saturday market. With those and some parallels also from the same source I can clamp most things for milling.

The lathe will come with a 3 jaw chuck probably, but you will soon decide you need a 4 jaw as well, also a dial indicator for centering things. The old books will say you need a faceplate, I've got one with my Myford Super 7, used it once in about 10 years.

Your mileage may vary, and I'm sure everyone will violently disagree with everything I've said! Welcome to the world of tool collecting.

Hello PGK,

The size of machines that you will need will depend on what you want to build and as Peter has said, a big machine can also make small parts as long as you have space in the workshop for it.

I would suggest that you only purchase basic tooling to start with and then buy extras as they are required. The cost of tooling can cost more than you have spent on the lathe and mill. Quality tooling is always best and will last longer but will cost more. I often buy cheap cutters from flea-bay for a few dollars. If I break one, throw it away and use another.

Regards, Paul.

Just a few other thoughts.

You will need to check and compare specs very carefully indeed. As an example, when I was looking for my 220 some 21 year ago, I quickly drew up a short list of three possibilities - 918, Warco 220 and Myford 7.

Here are some of the specs I remember. In every instance I give them in the order 918/220/Myford.

Cost - Cheapest / Middling / Very expensive

Distance between centres - 18" / 20" / 19"

Centre height - 4.5" / 4" / 3.75"

Gap bed - No / No / Yes.

What this means was that the Myford could swing larger discs than it's spec would otherwise suggest.

No. of Speeds - 6 /9 / 14

Speed Range - 100-2000 / 125-2000 / 15-2000+

To put this in context, to turn the rim of an 8" cast iron disk requires a speed of somewhere in the region of 30-40rpm

Screwcutting gearbox - Yes / No / No

Lathes without a gearbox will have a set of changewheels with which any reasonable thread pitch can be set up. A lathe with a gearbox is limited to those pitches ordained by the manufacturer. Other pitches are available, but only by changeing various gears.

Weight - Lightest / Heaviest / Middle

Apparently weight = mass = rigidity = ability to cut without vibration etc.

In addition, I seem to recall that the 918 had the shortest top-slide and tailstock travel.

Overall then, the 918 appeared, on the face of it to supply a lot of lathe - gearbox, largest centre height, and is the cheapest. But it does seem to be cut down in a few respects. The Myford, on the other hand, whilst very expensive, and the lowest centre height, does have additional facilities which the other two don't have. My personal view at that time was that the Myford was over expensive, whilst the 918 was providing too much for the price and hence was shaved in various instances. Hence my decision to buy the 220.

It is of note that the 918 as far as I know, can still be found along with it's stretched brothers 920 and 1020 whilst the 220 is no longer available in this country and Myford went bust.

This is not a recommendation for the 918 - I offer the above just to show the differences in specifications.

I leave it to you.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

As I said above ... I'm not quick at making decisions and i must have lusted and cheated on a lot of lathe models so far.. from the myfords through the boxfords, harrisons and then thinking new.. something at the less fancy end of gearheads like the warco GH550 or 1236. Tales of casting sand and chinese hammered to fit parts I know would frustrate me..but then so would motor swaps or 3-phase conversions. I know my cheap wood lathe pigs me off having to move belts for speed changes so a gearbox is high on the list.

A frequent comment is that lathes are more 'important' than mills.. but my instincts suggest that a mill is actually more versatile. Without treading on toes the lathe 'just' turns and the mill can profile. Amd yes I appreciate you can jig about with either..

Back when i had my business i met enough reps with glowing tales of how wonderful their latest toys were.. and equally recall sending back 5 blood analysis machines before finally getting one that analysed to my required accuracy. But that did cost a darned sight more than the lathes we talk about here.. and didn't weight 350kg. So some idea of reliable companies to buy from would also be appreciated.( I also had a 20K xray machine blow up 2 weeks out of warranty which wasn't fun)

Well,pgk, have n't read all the other posts but it depends as much on budget as how much of a hurry you're in. I've spent about £6k over about 10 years and by not buying in a hurry have assembled the following which are all housed in a 23 feet by 11 feet garage.. I have admittedly probably spent about the same again on tooling and accessories.

Lathes CVA toolroom lathe, EmcoV10P,,small Zyto, and very small Draper.

Mills Haighton Major, Smallish Fritz Werner, Quick step mill, plus the one on the Emco

Shapers Elliott 14M ,Elliot 10M,

Small drill press and larger "radial type" drill (a la Axminster).Drill presses not upo to quality of other machines but adequate.

A Union and a similar K.O.Lee tool and cutter grinder.

Plus a table saw, small timber bandsaw and a metal band saw and several small machines grinders, fretsaw ,welders. etc.

Up until the purchase of the CVA and Elliott 14 inch shaper all machines were easily accessible and I could get my car in (at the time a Nissan Primera ) with just enough space to work on it.  but I must admit I am now in the process of building a 100 sq.ft extension to the rear of and adjoining the garage.

Regarding cost ,I live in Scotland where bargains are rarer. A friend in the Dover area has assembled an array of machines which makes me look like a pauper including a toolroom Smart and Brown plus another S and B, (Sabel,) a Cromwell ,A Top of the range Thiel mill ,and a Stanko Thiel copy,a large Holbrook and many other top class machines all in v.g.c. and very very comprehensively tooled. I suspect he has assembled this lot plus many other machines for less than my expenditure., altho he admits to some luck ,I suspect patience and knowing his stuff are the main factors.

Of course if you're in a hurry you'll probably end up with just a good well tooled Myford , a well tooled Tom Senior and not a lot left for other machines. or extra tooling. Either way,best of luck--just assembling the workshop is almost as much fun as using it IMO .(Don't want a good Elliott 10M do you ?) .

Have a lot of fun-You could n't have picked a better hobby..

Alan

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 00:18:30

Sorry about that ,chaps,I did a couple of clicks it appears when I meant to do one.

I'll use this unexpected opportunity for a quick PS. My experience of Far east machines is limited .As you'll see I've preferred to go for manual older European machines but IMO only, I would go for Chinese manufactured modern machines if you're in a hurry. There is an old school that sleep with their Myfords but IMO they don't know what they are missing. Also in 10 years when this hobby has moved on you will find its far easier and cheaper to add DRO s or CNC to these machines . With a hobby farm you'll want to turn metal that a Myford won't accommodate ,let alone cut.

Alan

You are probably nearer Chester(chesterhobby) than Warco for new machines.
For used with a personal service try Premier who had a good report from another beginner recently.

With your tractor and farm you are more likely to want big stuff unless you are thinking of starting small for training. So I would go for an M300 or Colchester Master (possibly Triumph as their size reduces demand and keeps the price down) just watch for bad bearings, and the ubiquitous Bridgport though personally I would have loved the heavier Sturdimill that Premier sold recently.

Don't get taken in by the "tooling will cost you as much as the machine" comments as you don't need it all on day one so you can spread the cost of that but you can't make you lathe grow by 10% next year when you regret spending on tools you haven't used. If the salesman tries to make you buy more than £100 on 'essential tools' you have already spent £50 more than you should as a beginner.
So you do NOT need a DRO, a QCTP, a super swivelly vice, a set of collets, any carbide or indexable cutters at all, a clamping set, a coolant system, sets of parallels, micrometers.
You DO need safety glasses, a few HSS lathe tool bits, one 12mm slot drill (not end mill) and non collet holder for it, half a dozen T-bolts with nuts and bits of metal for clamps, a vernier caliper.

I can't say that I see any likelihood of turning agri parts - most of those sorts of repairs take a decent welder and a very large hammer or soemone with hydraulics knowledge. Farm machinery has one aim in life - to try and kill you - and doesn't need beginner help in that regard ..

But to put it in practical terms: If one finds, say an M300 for £2K, then how extra much for shifting it and converting it to single phase (and some pocket money for extra muscle this end - it's not going to be a one-man job).

I can accept that beginner turning needn't be to the 0.001 but surely there's need for some accurate measuring stuff to set it up an check it out? That doesn;t mean I'm thinking of engineers levels - I've got good ordinary spirit levels and any smart phone can run a half decent inclinometer ap. But I;m guessing one still needs a micrometer to cut a test bar?

What are the practical snags of a secondhand larger lathe?

pgk

I would say that you need to find help! I have got and had both new Chinese and second hand British machines. I can now definitively answer the age old question of which is better old British or new Chinese, and here it is:-

A good second hand machine is better than a bad new one and a good new machine is better than a worn out old one.

I realise that this isn't much help which is why I think you would be best to enlist some help.

There are second hand machines out there that are fantastic, if you can find something out of a university or research dept then you could end up with an excellent machine that hasn't had much use (and cost five times the amount of a new Chinese one). These machines tend to be operated by the most skilled engineers and because they are not in a production environment tend to be properly maintained. Machines that are used in the cut and thrust of manufacturing tend to be worked hard and often, by whoever can get the job done and only got rid of when they are worn out.

New imported machines are by and large very good if not excellent but if you read the postings here you will find that every now and then a duffer crops up. As a new recruit how would you know that you had got something with a fault? There have been a few cases I have read about where someone has bought a new machine and only discovered the fault after a few years when they have gained sufficient experience, by this time it is well out of guarantee.

It is possible to fit a vfd ( variable frequency drive )to most three phase machines and this will give speed control and allow you to run on single phase. Cost would be somewhere around £500 / £750 if you had to call someone in although some machine dealers may do this for you to secure the order.

Get a DRO if you can as this will make life much easier for you.

If you can get some help and end up with a machine that is in good order and has been checked out by someone who knows what they are doing then if something is not going well then at least you know it isn't the machine!

£6K is a good budget for setting up a workshop and you should end up with great machines that will be a pleasure to use.

One final thing if you are buying a drill press get an old British one!

Regards.

David.

> A good second hand machine is better than a bad new one and a good new machine is better than a worn out old one.

That's probably the most sensible thing that's ever been posted on this topic!

Thank you!

Neil

Your comment about the engine crane is wise, if you get one a 2 ton model is best and no bigger than a 1 ton. My heaviest m/c ,the CVA is a ton and a half and with an engine crane ,a six foot pry bar, and a few rollers and wedges it is easily and precisely moved. A home made pair of short legs and counter weights (bricks or similar) makes a crane pretty manoeuvrable.Other things being equal machine mass equates to stability and quality. The best lathes,mills etc are very heavy for their size.

Agree with your comments about agri work but there are many jobs in plant engineering (rebushing, engine maintenance etc etc ) where it will pay you to have a lathe and mill at the upper end of home workshop sizes. Often for plant engineering you won't need phenomenal accuracy (good learning projects) but its still a lot more fun on a quality machine than a clunker.

Do a lot of reading, This site covers a lot of subjects and practical machinist site , home workshop,model engineers clearing house forums etc etc will over the course of 6 months cover much of what you need to know. Topics crop up time and time again and six months will cover most of them.

You sound a practical chap with sound principles and provided you respect the machines (they can be dangerous whether operating or just being moved) you'll have a lot of fun , meet some wonderful people and be quite expert in time that will fly by.

Keep having fun, but its hard not to in this hobby.

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 11:59:43

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:01:27

I think you need to review what you intend to use the machinery for!

It is no good buying a large machine if you intend to work on clocks and watches and on the other hand it is no good buying a small machine if you are looking to machine larger parts (10" + diameter).

As for new v second user then I agree with David as that puts that debate in to a nut shell.

There are people that are willing to help you only have to ask but in the first instance I would suggest you play the look see game and go and see as many of the offerings as you can both new and second user machines.

Moving larger machines about is not easy, hiring an engine crane does make life a lot easier, I have this job to do all be it with in the garage/workshop and a local company hires them for £15.00 a day so that suits me. Getting a machine from one location to your home depends on size, something below say 500kg can be moved with a pallet truck and a tail lift van or at least that's how Pickford's moved my kit.

FYI: A Harrison M300 tips the scales at 685kg in long bed format.

Bob

BTW: All the kit will take up room in your workshop so you may need to see if it will all fit in

Oh, forgot one point. Drinking with a scrappy is a very useful way of passing the time. A bit of reading will tell you what steels different scrap is probably made of ( a spark test and a magnet) will confirm and you'll have raw materials for next to nothing. Also it is not unknown alas for quite high quality machines, far from the end of life to end up at a scrap yard. I currently know of a CVA toolroom lathe (arguably the "best" lathe ever made ,its certainly a contender) which will probably be scrapped unless I rescue it for spares.

Its in better condition than mine and is only being scrapped because someone has seriously abused its gearbox. Both the current owner and myself are quite capable of fixing the box ,he more so than me, but its all time, the one thing we are all short of. Did I mention this hobby is responsible for the most and biggest time overdrafts?

Alan

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:16:42

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:20:40

One more thing. Don't worry about moving weight. If you're reasonably fit and agile moving anything up to a ton with an engine crane , a cheap heavy duty trailer (home made will do, mines a two ton and cost very little) and ratchet straps, soon becomes pretty easy although its wise to have someone else present to call medical help if necessary and also wise to move the first one or two with someone who knows what they are doing. Beware of complacency I got a bit careless with a beautiful Alexander engraver as it was only 5 cwt. and was a bit lucky to avoid serious damage to me, and more importantly the machine.

.I;m 71 and by no means as big as Hercules except for my stomach,which is the wrong shape to qualify.

Cheers Alan

Get someone with experience to check out any machine tool you are thinking of buying be it old or new!!, my personal preference having had new Chinese stuff, is used ex collage stuff, Harrison Colchester, etc as a bonus if you decide you don't like this hobby the English stuff will hold its value, inverters are the way to go for me, I recently fitted a cheap inverter to a friends Harrison 140, it cost £60!!! and to be honest although I am surprised, I actually cant fault it, other than the manual which is in neither Chinese or English but some weird mix, however we muddled through, get a couple of good mic's and a 150mm digital vernier as a starting point, these can be used on the lathe for roughing purposes, and can be surprisingly accurate, the rest you can pick up as you go,

have fun

Hi pgk & welcome.

You have a nice sum for your budget & that should be more than adequate to get you started.. '

'A good second hand machine is better than a bad new one and a good new machine is better than a worn out old one'.

I can see the sense in this & can concur with its sentiment. as for measuring instruments.. decide what accuracy you will be needing, digital mics & verniers a more than adequate for the hobbyist but you have to bear in mind they do vary according to what the temperature in your proposed workshop is, plus any machined metal will also expand as it's machined so you will have to take this into account ( apologies for granny & eggs syndrome ). I have a Mitutoyo digital 0-25mm that I use as a master plus a 8" Mitutoyo vernier, again used as a master, but have also got other mics & verniers digital & analogue that I use when 'roughing out' also spring callipers, again used for roughing out, I always have a 3" digi vernier in my top pocket for general measuring & I do check with analogue mics on finishing cuts & compare with digital & have in general found that they compare within .01 / .00039" of ea. other. I have my garage insulated & use a couple of small oil filled rads to maintain a temp of about 14 - 16*C in winter & all my measuring equip't is usually warmed up to that by the time I get started, but it looks like you've got your insulation sorted.

As for lathes & mills I bought a Warco WM250V-F & a WM 16 mill at the Harrogate exhibition in 2012 ( usual disclaimer ) as a package so got some discount & the Myfords on sale were silly money, without any add ons, so far I have had decent service out of both. It boils down to what you want to make, all I can add is go for the biggest you feel you can work with & need, & to reiterate..' you can always do small stuff on a large lathe etc. .... I would go for DRO's as they will eliminate any inbuilt discrepancies re. backlash, I fitted a set to my mill & have not looked back... am now looking at a set for my lathe... again personal preference, I would also consider a small..ish bandsaw, I bought myself a 4" x 6" from Mach. Mart on one of their VAT free days ( again usual disc.   as at my age didn't take kindly hacksawing through 2" Ally bar or 75mm Brass round.. a very useful addition.

As a parting comment I can only add to ensure you have enough security measures fitted to you 'man cave' as sure as tomorrow comes some low life WILL have a go at your stuff, especially as you're in the wilds, don't ask how I know! so good hunting & once you're sorted just enjoy, if I can help with anything else just drop me a pm.

Cheers

George