Chinese lathes

Posted by Sam Stones on 28/12/2010 02:28:23:

 My first lathe, a Peatol, had neither a calibrated handwheel for saddle traverse (rack-and-pinion, no leadscrew) nor a topslide (well, they do sell a topslide for the lathe, but after trying it a couple of times it proved to be (a) a pain to set up and (b) about as rigid as high tensile jelly). So I got used to finding other methods for measuring to shoulders etc.. I now also have a Myford ML7; I have removed the topslide from that lathe and replaced it with a solid toolpost machined from aluminium bar, with the QCTP mounted atop that. I don't miss the topslide at all; for many uses it just isn't necessary (and as John points out, reduces the lathe's rigidity), and for the few cases where it would be helpful I have alternative methods available to me as the lathe is now converted to allow either manual or CNC operation. The latter allows me to do full CNC control where that is appropriate, using Mach 3, or a rather simpler form of CNC control using one of my trusty Divisionmaster controllers. While the latter was originally sdesigned to drive a rotary table, it is easy enough to set it up to drive the lathe's leadscrew, and cutting accurate length to shoulders then becomes a doddle. The other day I needed to graduate a thimble (part of the Worden grinder that I am building) with 25 divisions; I had one Divisionmaster controlling the indexing, via a worm drive engaged with the lathe's bull wheel, and another driving the leadscrew to give me accurate-length witness marks on the thimble. However, for probably 95% of the work the lathe does, it operates in manual.

 

Regards,

Tony

The Unimat 3 as supplied uses just the leadscrew for left-right movement, with a calibrated handwheel on the end. There is no rack, and no clasp nut, eg it is not a conventional screwcutting lathe. (There is a hob attachment but I didn't think it looked very useful.)

The leadscrew handwheel does provide quite a useful way of working, although one recommended mod is to provide yourself with a zeroing dial as this saves a lot of time. I do have the little topslide for this lathe, it is useful for little tapers etc, but you would not want to leave it there all the time.  It would get in the way too much.

 

I guess it is perfectly feasable to work in the same way on a larger lathe, especially if you have the means to disconnect the screwcutting gear train easily. I have a gearbox on the Myford, so dropping out the last selector is easy, I wouldn't want to have to take off the quadrant all the time.

 

regards

John

The problem with a lot of larger lathes is unlike the Unimat they have no handwheel on the end of the lead screw so you have to rely on the carrage wheel which is not the easiest thing to use to put on small cuts and the dial is not callibrated in small divisions.

 

I used to have the geared head Emco Ecomat8.6 which had a 16tpi lead screw and the handwheel on the end was calibrated in 0.0005" divisions, 0.0625" per rev. I didn't use it for turning much but it was ideal for use with teh vertical slide.

 

Jason

Has anybody had any experience of importing direct from China?. I was thinking of upgrading my cutter grinder to one of those Universal Grinders as advertised by some of our tool suppliers. On downloading the specifications, I found that although the same, the prices vary considerably from £655 to over £1200 including the accessories.

I contacted the manufacturer in China and was quoted £471 including delivery by sea. Added to that would be import duty and VAT which I calculate to £579 total. £1200 is quite a mark up and would make the effort to buy direct worth while.

The accessories show the biggest difference. Each attachment cost £16 ex the factory with the diamond wheel costing £13. I have not seen any of the attachments buy they look similar in the specifications. For instance, the price of the endmill sharpening attachment in UK is between £80 and £100, compared with about £20 from China. They also supply a higher specification machine, the GD-U3 for an extra £100 which now has me wondering if to this is the route to take.

If anyone has experience of dealing direct I would like to hear their comments.

I wonder how much a lathe or a mill would cost buying direct.

 

Depending on who you buy from, MOST of the Universal Griders from China DONOT have "real" CE certification. Both with and without are available on the U.K. market. In any case, you will need to be careful with what you buy. A prototype exists of one of the clones with John Stevenson, which he had to modify.

 

These are grinders with high speed spindles. Another prototype has been known by me to have the grinding wheel come off during operation and fly past the users right ear. All be it that it was the users fault for not checking the lock nuts, but that event put me right off bringing it for sale.

 

On the risk guage, probability of injury is high so if you are dealing with a non-CE product, I would suggest you to keep off, like I did. Even with CE compliance, be careful. I do not know how some traders are still selling the non-CE version.

 

Still, if you take the risk, did the price quoted include clearance charges?. Usually they do not. Depending on how little the seller paid for the carriage to the Chinese shipping forwarding company, will effect how much more you will end up paying for clearance and delivery - anywhere upwards to GBP125.00 extra for clearance and delivery, plus VAT. Rest is up to you.

 

Profits margins on lathes and mills are crap, so buying small hobby machines from China direct will probably not save you any money - not to forget - no back-up when things go wrong

 

You dont have to believe me. SIEG will not supply you directly. Others might. Risk is yours.

 

Ketan at ARC.

Ray,

I would only remind you of comments made by an American several years ago, anent Chinese Lathes: his machine needed a complete strip, degrease, re-assemble and adjust; but then became a good machine.

He said that the original grease looked like refinery floor-scrapings!

That said, perhaps the heavy mark-up covers the cost  of preparing machines for re-sale (or placating those clients who actually complain!).

Eric Lougheed 

May I ask another question, please?

I've fabricated a 4" square x 3/8" hold-down plate for the top-slide. Not quite as per the drawings proffered earlier, but very similar.

However, when I switched on, no response!

Previously there had been intermittent difficulty in starting - motor starts, lathe runs, lathe stopped (for check measurement etc.) , lathe refuses to re-start. After some time, and turning the machine by hand, it would re-start - but not predictably.

I had wondered whether something was over-heating in the motor, or some safety element was being over-sensitive. But it had been getting progressively worse - and now 'dead'.

(When first in use I could stop and start very frequently with no trace of difficulty.) 

I've checked wiring, switches, etc. as best I can and found no obvious fault. 

But inside the wiring system is a 12-pin relay, powered by a low voltage transformer (which shews no open-circuit faults in the windings).

Could any kind soul suggest ways of testing the relay, please? I have only a pocket meter for resistance, continuity, voiltages, etc.

Eric Lougheed 

 

 

Hi Eric ,

what model of lathe  do you have ?

 

and is the wiring and circuit diagrams available as a free pdf manual download

 

if it has a dc motor like in the C3 minilathes

and the motor starts when you turn the spindle by hand

i'd check  for loose wires , the interlock switches on the chuck guard  etc

and the length  of the motor brushes

 

 with the info for your lathe  some one wiil be able to give you

more exact tests to solve the problem

 

 John

Morning,

Just spent the last hour reading all the posts regards the "quality" of the chinese machines.  I have a Warco GH1224 so slightly smaller than Lathejacks machine.  I had run the machine for about 18 months and something just wasn't right with the machine. As Lathejack has done I took the machine apart.  I found the same types of problems.  Sand / swarf in the headstock oil.  Items installed onto the spindle that looked like they had been bashed around with a hammer and holes drilled like they where drunk.

 

I replaced all the bearing in the machine with skf put the machine back together and the rattling has now gone.  The machine is great now although I still have oil leaking from somewhere.  I'm not too pleased with the build quality but as you say.......you get what you pay for.

 

I manage the installation of multi-million pound CNC Milling machines / production equipment and I would not accept these types of errors on the installation.  But I know how much a lathe at the high end of the market costs and the chinese builds are pretty good for their money.

 

I would like Warco to increase there quality control on the build of the machines but in the end that would just increase the price of the machine to the end user and I'm sure if you asked everyone all we want is a reasonably cost machine.

 

Anyway thats only my thoughts.

Thanks

Ant 

Thanks to John Swift - it is an Excel PL-916.

The control box includes a low voltage transformer and an 11-pin relay. The transformer seems to give almost 40v, and an 18v battery makes the relay click most convincingly.

But following through the wiring (the lathe manual electrical information amounts to a joke in very bad taste) I find only about 4v flowing through the micro-switch fuse & circuit. 

AND, it looks as though I'll have to dismantle most of the drive system to inspect brushes! 

 

Has anyone met this problem before, please? 

 

Eric Lougheed 

Hi Eric

 

I've had a look at excel machine tools web site but can't find a picture of the PL-916

or download the manual

 

if your machine doesn't have a speed control like the CL300M minilathe

and is more like the Warco GH1224

the motor is more likely to be a single phase induction motor ( with no brushes)

 

a scan of the wiring diagram would help

does your machine have an electric brake like the Warco lathe ?

 

  John

I've responded to John directly (couldn't get the thread message panel to respond), but the number is PL-918, NOT 916!

Speed control is by simple belt-changing.

There is no wiring diagram, only directions for running on 240v or 110v. (changing links on the drum switch )

I've bought spare nylon drive train gears from Chester's before, but no response yet to my technical enquiry. 

Eric Lougheed 

having read the available info on the pl 918

i'm convinced the motor is an induction motor

 

if you can see the coil voltage on the relay

you may find it to  be 48v ac , with a typical range of + or - 15%  or so

it would work off the 40 volts you measured 

 

this makes sence if  water based coolent can find its way into any interlock switches

like the chuck guard on the machine

 

this is the case for machines like the EMI-MEC SPRINT  automatic capstan lathe

you can touch the wet terminals of the limit switches if you are daft enough

 

 

  John

 

 

 ps  a relay with a coil intended to operate on AC  as you have found out

          works with a smaller DC voltage

 

 

Posted by Anthony Salisbury on 02/01/2011 12:31:52:

 Yes Ant, all we want is a reasonably priced machine, that works well and accurately to it's full potential when delivered as new from the supplier.  If that requres only better assembly line process and proceedures and QC at the point of manufacture, then the cost would not be so great, and would be perfecly acceptable, indeed welcomed, by all purchasers.  This small additional cost would be little compared to the additional time and expense of having to strip-down, clean, adjust and refit correctly post delivery - or the even bigger expense of putting right after some period of use when further wear or damage may result.

 

Additionally there is the lottery factor - some machines from the same source and of the same model are better than others, and the variability in quality and accuracy is not a gamble I was prepared to take, so I eventually moved on from considering a very reasonably priced Chinese lathe, to a quality product that I know I can rely on being 'spot-on' when delivered, but at an almost 4x cost increase.  However I appreciate that not all, or even many, are in a position to be able to make themselves afford such a decision, and I am indeed very fortunate in this aspect (though I am now cleaned out!).

Hmm...

 

I must admit, I bought a 'returned' mini lathe expecting issues, but aside from some missing accessories which were rapidly supplied, I had no problems aside from things like adjusting gibs.

 

But part of the deal is having a lathe I am not shy of modifying - I doubt if many people would make as many changes to a Super 7, but I have something that now has a host of little extras - even a leadscrew 'clutch' - and room for more in due course.

 

Neil

Hi Guys, I was looking myself at equipping a small workshop, and inevitably started looking at Chinese production. It increasingly seems pretty much whatever you buy, some if not all of it is made in China anyhow, the big question though is the end workman ship and quality. (Of cause that said I understand there are the Rolls Royce machines still made in the UK etc. but I think the investment needed for these is beyond me!)

 

I've bought a few odds and ends from China before (typically electronic test equipment). Some of the items have been very high quality and a fraction of western prices, but other items have been terrible, (sloppy assembly; nuts not tightened, metal shavings short-circuiting circuit boards etc..)

 

I've come across this Machine Manufacturer:   www.blinmachinery.com

Who also have more listings here: http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product-group/RoJxYsQGIthF/Universal-Lathe-Gap-Bed-Lathe-Bench-Lathe-catalog-4.html

 

Does anyone have any experience with these guys?   They claim to have a build standard to "ISO9001: 2000, CE" but what does this mean anyhow?!

 

The prices would be very hard to beat  for example the  "BL-BL-JX6230C" has a price of $1750 so even if shipping import etc. cost the same amount again its an attractive price! I dare say i don't expect to be making pocket watches on the thing, but my main worry would be if the quality is so bad I have to scrap it.. its an awful lot of scrap, and not the lightest of things!

 

The enticing thing is I could fit out a "nice" workshop with lathe drill and mill, and then afford a good selection of tooling,  for a fraction of the price of buying in Europe.

 

I have considered maybe starting off with a pillar drill and seeing what the quality of that is like before spending more, but I would really value your comments!

 

Phil

Phil

Have a look around at the UK suppliers -like ArcEuroTrade, Chester, Warco, Axminster and others- the HK company is not a manufacturer but an agent, some of the machines are very well known Chinese machines by Sieg and others and very easy to get from UK suppliers. The Sieg machines are very well described on web sites the world over.

 

Also consider the invisibles, if you deal with a UK supplier then you have Trading Standards, the Sale of Goods Act and Credit Card on your side. UK suppliers will be aware of adverse publicity and don't want to wreck their trade so try to keep their customers happy. You can always phone them up or call in person to sort out any issues and get any spares quickly and cheaply.

 

You don't say what you want to make! I would suggest that you get a C3 lathe or an old Myford and start making stuff. If you want more then the sale price will be around what you have paid but the education value will be far greater and you will have a much clearer idea of what you need for the future. Machine tools are a bit like religion, people have differing views. You can do worse than go to a few exhibitions, join a ME club,  scan back through the posts on the Forums or enter the portals of  www.lathes.co.uk. Sounds like you might be another convert!

 

regards,

Alan.

 

Hi Phil,

 

I agree with Alan's comments 100% I've just bought a Chinese lathe from Warco which more or less fulfils your specification, it's just a little smaller but has cross feed as well.

 

If you live in the EU, I also noted that safety equipment to comply with EU regulations (such as chuck guard, micro switch off interlocks etc) are extras to add to the basic machine. These come as part of the package from UK traders.

 

As for second hand machines, the one which is not often mentioned here is the Boxford range. There are many good examples available on the second hand market and usually come with a range of extra equipment and tooling. Once you are experienced, as Alan says such a machine will generally sell for what you paid for it as they are quite desirable.  There again you may find it so good that you don't want to part with it. So there is nothing really to lose.  You can find more about them here.  Another benefit is that these are quality British products which have stood the test of time and many were installed in educational establishments so haven't had the rigorous use that an industrial machine would have had.  Spares are also readily available but you probably wouldn't ever need any.

 

In the old Boxford range, the AUD is the best equipped and the BUD is next, the only thing missing on the latter is the Norton gearbox, but it will probably come with its gear set for screwcutting.  Also worth noting is that all of the major parts are interchangeable across the range, so  a BUD could become an AUD by picking up a gearbox later if you think you need it.  having said that I have bought a Chinese lathe, I should also say that I have bought a BUD as a replacement for one lost in a recent fire.  I know which I think that I'll be using most.  (Here is a refurbished CUD)

 

Don't rush in to buying, have a read, do a lot more research, try to get hands on experience, but my best advice is to use UK suppliers with all the back up that is there from both the company and UK law.  A good used AUD will be available for around £1000 - £ 1400 from companies such as this (no connection) or on eBay.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

Hi Alan & Terry,

 

Many thanks for the comments. I guess a bit of back ground would help perhaps! 

 

Im actually nowadays living in Norway were all is ridiculously expensive! I basically want to equip a small workshop to allow me to make various odds and ends that I need in a lab for my daily work. This is things like masks for a coating machine - ali plate faced off with square holes put in it, shafts and bearing plates for simple gear assemblies, the ability to drill and mill holes in existing equipment - SS flange & fittings for example. Its all rather simple work to be honest, with materials from plastic to SS but its the ability to do it myself can save my small work project a great deal of time money and effort, as simply there is no possibility of finding someone to do such odd jobs here in Norway. For the price of one such odd job I could have bought at least one piece of equipment! My main work is R&D so the the ability to just pop out of the lab and make a quick modification to some equipment cannot be underestimated!

 

I've had a bit of a hankering for a workshop for some time also, and time and finances have given me the ideal opportunity. I've had some experience over the years on various lathes and mills.

The lab work I do requires use of Stainless Steel parts (for vacuum use) so this has to be possible, (though I confess im not a fan of machining the stuff, so I will stick to Ali where possible!) I want flexibility in the size of what I can do so a 200x200mm workable area on the mill minimum, and to be able to turn something say 150mm diam in the extreme. Getting 3 phase electricity here can be an issue, but that was one of the attractions of that range of machines I mentioned, as you could get quite beefy machines fitted for single phase. A floor standing single phase pillar drill for example. (And I would prefer to not have to start adding inverters to my shopping list.) So I have basically been looking at machines around the limit of single phase.. about 1.5-2kW.

Buying anything in Norway is simply a non-starter, they are bought from Germany or the UK and then the price doubled. I have looked at the German / Chinese Optimum line of equipment, but that got me thinking of simply buying direct! I dont really want to buy second hand as, as someone has mentioned there is that risk of getting someone else's cast offs that they learnt on and duly wore out! I would love to buy British, but I suspect the prices are just way out of my league.

 

My experience of any customer service in the past has generally not been good from any country. Once its out the shop then they just dont care, so  my thinking was simply if I buy direct, I may have the same troubles as if I bought through an EU reseller, but at least I could afford to do something about it!

Best regards,

Phil